Mbuna Mixing

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

Since I have noticed not just here but on other forums people mixing mbuna that they shouldn't. How about the more knowledgeable mbuna keepers chime in here as to what can be mixed and what cannot. Since I have kept them years ago a lot of names have changed. To name a few below what can be mixed safely with others:
Cynotilapia afra
Cynotilapia Axelrodi
Cynotilapia sp.
Gephyrochromis moori
Iodotropheus sprengerae
Labeotropheus fuelleborni
Labeotropheus trewavasae
labidochromis
Melanochromis
Metriaclima
Petrotilapia
Pseudotropheus
Tropheops
Is it safe to say that you should not have 2 different Cynotilapia in the same tank, fueleborni & trewavasae in the same tank, 2 different Labidochromis i together, 2 different Melanochromis together, 2 different Metriclima together, or 2 Pseudotropheus together.
Also would a Pseudo go with metriclima, cynotilapia go with labidochromis, etc...
I have talked to MisterTed about this when I bough fish from him so I pretty much know but would like to know how everyone else feels. I am always worried about hybrids.
Also one more question:
Say you have a Pseudotropheus male and it breeds with a Metriclima female. If you were to remove it to a tank of it's own with the same Pseudotropheus male would it still produce hybrids or once it gets knocked up by it's own kind would it no longer have hybrids?

Enough said!
Experts next...

Ed Young

[joe_jaskot]

To be 100% positive that you are not creating hybrids, fish to be bred should be kept in single species tanks.

As to your second question, crossing two different species produces hybrids. Breeding a male and female of the same species will not produces hybrids. To my knowledge, cichlids do not store sperm like some livebearers do.

[misterted]

Ed,

Just to reiterate: I have been keeping Cynotilapia Afra jalo Reef and Cynotilapia sp. Mbamba Lions Cove in the same tank for years. They have never cross bred nor have I seen any hint of interest of crossbreeding between males and females of both species. My fry have ALWAYS been pure for both species.

I have never kept Labeotropheus T and F together in the same tank.
I have kept 2 Metriaclima species together as well as 2 Pseudotropheus species together with no problems either but my rule is not to keep fish that are smiliar.
For example; I sold my Ps Saulosi Trio because I bought a group of Msoso Deep Magungas and the females are similar. Never had any trouble with G. Moori or Rusties either.

This is my experience. If I ever had a doubt of hybrid shenanigans going on I would cull the fry and remove the group in question immediately and those of you that know me would not doubt this. I want my tank to be as natural as possible and to replicate the lake.

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

Thanks Joe & Ted!

[eggzackary]

I believe when mixing mbuna you are never 100% safe from hybridizing. I've had some fish that would be considered "safe" to mix dancing in front of each other. What works for one may not totally work for someone else. A couple of things i do to prevent any hybridizing in my mbuna tanks are:

1) choose species that don't resemble one another. If you have a hard time telling apart females of a couple species, imagine how hard it is for the males in your tanks.
2) Make sure you provide enough females for your males.
3) Keep an eye on your fish, watch and see who interacts with who, only collect fry from spawns you're sure are correct.

I once walked out of a guys house and didn't buy fry from him because i looked at what he had mixed in his tanks (4 different cyno's).... he did assure me that the right fish spawned with the right fish LOL

[nick a]

I agree with both of Joe's points.

But, with the understanding that the overwhelming majority of Mbuna fans are NOT going to keep species only tanks......I could say a few things about YAP's questions (and the mixing only matters if you're collecting fry to pass on to others).

General rule is always that M/F ratios and contrasting morphology between species are MUSTs. Try to avoid two species of the same genus--although with all the updates and changes going on, it's hard sometimes to be certain!

Fish are not stupid or slutty:), IF you give them proper mates and a conducive environment (including well-thought-out tankmates) they'll generally do the right thing!

[misterted]

I cannot agree more with Nick A and EggZackary.
Male to female ratio is very important and That is something I have always abided by.

[nick a]

Let me just say that there isn't any hard and fast rule. Logic, common sense and each person's skill level has to be considered.

I also have a tank with two Cyno species in it--Hara and Lion--but these are things that were considered before the mix was acceptable to me:
125 gal tank w/separated rock piles
at least 6 females of each species
All adult WC fish (which one must assume were breeding 'correctly' before being caught and will continue to know the 'right' mates afterwards)
blue females vs brown females & very different looking males
2 other breeding species in tank (pundamilia & tropheops) which tend to fragment/separate/shrink the cyno's territories
etc.....

All of which added up (IMHO) gives me about a 99% chance of no hybridizing.
The final factor for me was the previous experience with both fish giving me the knowledge of what 'proper' fry should look like (blue babies for hara/brown for lion) therefore making it highly obvious IF the 1% did occur!

[themadhap]

In a show tank i always kept males so i woudn't run in to breeding issues if you have pairs in the tank any thing could happen it happens in the wild , and if they start to breed you have more agression delimas so , if you mix the species with defrent pairs and give them alot of space and stucture like haps ,mbunas, catfsh you could be allright,alot of guys get away with breeding fish and dont get hybs but sometimes they do get hybs so if you keep it 100% its the only way!

[M. Boona]

We've found if you have enough females the males will not try to crossbreed. We think the fish prefer spawning among their own species. We haven't noticed any interest shown from the males towards another species.

For a short period of time we only had one male greshakei and one female greshakei. After the female was holding and they separated (female went to a holding tank) the male showed no interest whatsoever towards chasing, pursuing or obviously "shaking" at another fish. As soon as the female greshakei was put back into the tank the male got all fired up, started showing his colors, chased the female greshakei and started "shaking" for her. In less than 5 days our female greshakei was holding again and the same thing happened, the male calmed down after she left the tank.

[fischfan13]

I once walked out of a guys house and didn't buy fry from him because i looked at what he had mixed in his tanks (4 different cyno's).... he did assure me that the right fish spawned with the right fish LOL

All of this happens in the Aulonocara world as well.
Buyer beware.
There are quite a few people from other forums who I would not only buy from, but I have told others not to buy from.

Sometimes I think that everyone who breeds fish should adopt an Oscar and keep them well fed.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

I would give the biggest kudo's to to person that has an all male pseudo tank , but for whatever reason hap. people have the intelligence to go all male but pseudo people constantly mix with no regard for purity . In addition this is like the third time I've heard this if you have enough female's they won't interbreed thing. Come-on it's not true and no one really believes it. It's fine if you want what you want and it's your tank's so do whatever you want with it , but could someone show alittle restraint and self control with similar fish . They should never be housed in the same tank or interbreeding will occur FOR SURE. The other downside is no-one will want to buy your fish. Think about it !

[joe_jaskot]

You can all say what you want. Mixed mbuna = mutts. They just cross breed too easily in a tank, no matter how many females there are.

[DJRansome]

I would not have more than one species from a genus in a tank except for pseudotropheus. No one knows what genus pseudotropheus is, LOL.

You may wonder about my metriaclima and labs. The estherae are all proven females who have held eggs. First year I had them I was overrun with estherae fry. The male died and they have not held since. So I don't have to worry about my lab fry. Hmmm, does that lend evidence to the point of view that fish prefer to spawn with their own species? They are big and aggressive enough to discourage the other males.

Fischfan13, please note the lab fry were spawned in the main tank.

[M. Boona]

A lesson to us all - keep all pets away from your tanks!

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h67/VTEC_THIS/lionfish.jpg

[why_spyder]

I have a couple different Cynotilapia species mixed right now so I don't collect fry from the tank, period.

However, when I used to have two species of Cynotilapia to a tank I was confident in the fry I pulled because I always mixed two species that doesn't resemble each other in color, shape, size or any combo thereof.

I wouldn't mix L. fuelleborni and L. trewavasea - too hard for me to seperate the two - and I'd never feel confident pulling fry from the group.

To reduce the odds of hybridization, mix different looking fish in too good of ratios (1M/6+F - the more females the better) and make sure the fish have room to spread out and claim seperate territories. Get to know your fish, if you see fish showing inter-species interest - remove one or both of those species from the tank.

[nick a]

Nice pic M.B!

I guess I'm just one of those grey zoners. For me, there are just a few things in my world that are so simple that they can so easily be pigeonholed into the black/white boxes. It also seems that the only thing that I'm anywhere even close to being able to be considered a fanatic about is in my anti-fanaticism. Zeolots of all stripes quite frankly cause me concern. Extremists make me extremely willing to disregard their opinions.

If folks aren't interested in my fry because I don't follow the path they've determined to be the ONLY way to righteousness---I guess that's just something I'll have to learn to live with.

[why_spyder]

If folks aren't interested in my fry because I don't follow the path they've determined to be the ONLY way to righteousness---I guess that's just something I'll have to learn to live with.

I'm with you 110%.

[M. Boona]

^ Us too - well said nick a. :thumb3d: