Aulonocara Stuartgranti "Mkondowe"

[fischfan13]

I have been asked a few times what type of Peacock that it is on my avatar.
It is an Aulonocara Stuartgranti "Mkondowe" aka Orange Shoulder.
A little history about these...
Unless he corrects me, Peter Rubin from Atlantis received these in late 2005 or very early 2006. A gentleman named Walter bought a group of these from Peter and started to breed them. IN the Spring of '06 Color (Kevin Brieva) won a group of the fry at an auction. Kevin ended up selling them to me a few weeks later. I ended up breeding this fish and kept them for about a 18 months. HeyGuy (Will) had a massive male and YAP (Ed) also had much success with them.
The picture in my avatar is of a male that is not even close to being fully grown.
A little more...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Fischfan13/IMG_2275.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Fischfan13/IMG_2117.jpg

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

I sold off all of mine, the last trio going to S10Jimmy from PA.

[ChrisG12887]

Very nice!!! really like these! nice color!!

[fischfan13]

A big time fan of this websites has been asking some questions about this fish...many of you know who I am talking about. (Flareside, please do not spit out your lunch while you read this)
So, because I feel that this website is for EVERYONE to enjoy I want to help out this young man.

Here is the fish...
http://lakemalawi.com/prev_fish/fish_nov05.htm

[fischfan13]

This is for Emartin.
Ed, please take care of these Aulonocara.

[emartin]

I will.

Are you sure that is a stuartgranti type? Looks awful like a ruby red. Or are they a stuartgranti Marleri type?

I'm sure it's a stuartgranti though based on the history you posted I just want to be sure LOL. Either way nice colors on the fish!

~Ed

[emartin]

Also Bill I emailed you the photos.

Here are two pics from different sources that say they are Aulonocara stuartgranti Mkondowe...:
http://aquaticmadness.com/images/Aulonocara_Stuartgranti_Mkondowe.JPG

And the pics here: http://www.malawi-dream.info/Aulonocara_steveni_Mkondowe.htm

:coz::coz::coz::confused2::confused2::confused2:

Just trying to get to the bottom of it lol.

~Ed

[emartin]

Two more pics off of MFK...:
http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p386/AquaticMadness/IMG_0023_2.jpg

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p386/AquaticMadness/IMG_0025.jpg

Bill are you sure your pics are of the right fish??? It looks like that they are supposed to have blue in the dorsal...lots of it...

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

I still have 2 males left that look exactly like Bill's first pic.

[fischfan13]

Ed, bottom of what?
The pics that I showed you are the pics of the fish...not what you showed me.

If you do not want the fish I would be MOOOOOOOOOOOORE than happy to take them off of your hands.

[emartin]

I'll keep them for now LOL I just want to be sure of the species.

I'll contact Peter of atlantis and see what he says.

~Ed

[s10jimmy]

They came from me ! They are Mkondowe ,I have a trio and constantly are holding . :becky:

[s10jimmy]

They are one of my favorite peacocks ! :hat:

[emartin]

Yeah so far I'm hanging on to them. For the price I paid for them there's no reason for me NOT to keep them lol!

I'm just going to call these Aulonocara sp. "Mkondowe" for now though since there is no way they are stuartgranti types... Unless they are 'stuartgranti marleri' types which I'd have to see after they are grown out and colored up.

~Ed

[fischfan13]

Hey Ed, sometimes you rub ALL of us the wrong way.
Listen...
These came from Atlantis.
They were labeled by Peter.
I have talked to him about it on more than one occasion.
Call these fish whatever you want to call them, but please stop doing it with your finger pointed at some of us telling us we are wrong.

ps No text, no pm, no email, no phone call...thank you.

[emartin]

Hey Ed, sometimes you rub ALL of us the wrong way.
Listen...
These came from Atlantis.
They were labeled by Peter.
I have talked to him about it on more than one occasion.
Call these fish whatever you want to call them, but please stop doing it with your finger pointed at some of us telling us we are wrong.

ps No text, no pm, no email, no phone call...thank you.
Bill,

I am NOT saying that this is not a legitimate fish at all... And I am not saying you guys are all wrong...at all. Your fish pictures are awesome, and I look forward to growing the ones I have out. I just like to keep sharp records of each fish and what they are in order for hobby conservation. For example, I found out that the false intermedius is likely misidentified Otopharynx tetrastigma and I brought it to whom I consider an unofficial authority in the hobby Dave Schumacher and he agreed and now calls them that on his stock list.

Am I to say that Laif DeMason is an idiot and wrong and selling incorrect fish as Lethrinops intermedius on his stock list? ABSOLUTELY NOT. There's no question in my mind that the false intermedius is a legitimate fish based on tons of people vouching for it (people who JUST LIKE YOU GUYS have had a whole lot experience in the hobby than I have) and very likely Otopharynx tetrastigma but I am not going to say what Laif DeMason breeds and sells is a hybrid...it's just no true...

That's what I believe is the case here. I am not even saying Peter didn't label and sell these as Aulonocara stuartgranti Mkondowe. That's probably what he bought and imported them as. My guess is since they are definitely not pure stuartgranti that they have to be Aulonocara 'stuartgranti marleri' Mkondowe or this fish is a totally new species in itself.

I really do hope that you guys didn't (and don't from now on) take things I say the wrong way. My only motivation with these fascinating fish is to do my part in making sure all fish I keep and intend on breeding are in fact what I bought them as. For example I now know thanks to Dave S. now selling "Lethrinops furcifer "Green Face" Manda" that the wildcaught pair I had of Lethrinops sp. 'Green Face/Chest' is the same fish thanks to Dave (or whoever he bought the F1 fry from) finding out exactly what this new fish coming into America through Laif DeMason really is.

Again, I apologize if I rubbed any of you the wrong way. It's just that I don't want to consider myself a dedicated hobbyist and strong supporter of cichlid conservation and then sell fry of in this case what I bought as Aulonocara stuartgranti Mkondowe if I know for a fact that this fish:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Fischfan13/IMG_2275.jpg

Is not the same as this fish:
http://aquaticmadness.com/images/Aulonocara_Stuartgranti_Mkondowe.JPG
or this picture of a fresh wild caught one from stuart grants facility webpage:
http://lakemalawi.com/fish/fish_nov05.gif

The fish I know own and what you kept Bill HAVE to be actually Aulonocara 'stuartgranti marleri' Mkondowe, Aulonocara baenschi Mkondowe, or a totally new species. There's no way you can tell me that what I own now is of the same blood of TRUE Aulonocara stuartgranti Mkondowe that even the link you posted to stuart grants company page shows is not the same. At the same time, I am NOT telling you that it isn't a true species. I never EVER said your fish and what I own now are not legitimate fish. The first thing I said is it could actually be a 'stuartgranti marleri' type which is a different species than stuartgranti.

Once again, if I did rub any of you guys that kept this fish the wrong way that was not my intention and I am sorry if you took offense.

The reason why I bidded on the fish in the first place was I remember seeing Bill's old avatar and seeing that it was one good looking fish! After Bill bumped up this topic for me only then was I a little confused as to the identity. I bidded on this bag of fish NOT because of the name on it but because of what it looked like and the reputation all of you guys gave it as a great looking fish. I am not disappointed in buying these fish at all...

It's the same reason Bill why you asked me if someone I know well was selling true Lethrinops red cap itungi or the Chirwa variant. I don't know if I told you but the reply back from them was that what they currently sell is Chirwa but anything from last year and earlier was Itungi or at least that's what they got them as.

And again... I cannot hand out my apologies enough if you guys got offended. Hopefully you will realize my motivations were to not be of an accusing matter but merely to find out what this colorful species I now have (and look forward to growing out) is and should be called...

~Ed

[Heyguy74]

Is aulonocora steveni part of the staurtgranti complex of peacocks. I just looked at the varient map of C-F. I ask because if you look at aulonocora steveni "Kandi Island", the fish looks very similar to the Aulonocara stuartgranti Mkondowe. Based on the map its not too far from Mkondowe, malawi. I have also seen Aulonocara sp. "Stuartgranti Maleri" (Chidunga Rocks). I thought these were considered part of the stuartgranti complex as well. Further south on the lake but again, This is also a very similar fish.

Its very possible the fish was collected near Mkondowe or ended up being brough there from another part of the lake. Considering peacocks are still being properly classified we may never know. If the fish were bought as Aulonocara stuartgranti Mkondowe, then unless somebody goes to the lake and finds that fish does not exist in that vicinity, then they should remain as Aulonocara stuartgranti Mkondowe. I have also noticed that more than one species of stuartgranti can exsist at the same location. Its possible thats whats happening here as well. For example at chitimba bay. Now i'm going by the varient map on C-F. I hvae no idea how accurate the info is or if its been updated.

[emartin]

Thanks for giving your input and helping diffuse the situation a bit.


From my understanding Aulonocara steveni was moved into A. stuartgranti but are still viewed as a separate complex. Aulonocara 'stuartgranti maleri' is still separate from A. stuartgranti but obviously is closely related and may eventually be moved into A. stuartgranti like the steveni types were.

And that's why, since the fish I know have obviously isn't the same as the steveni type from the same location, and like you said they could have brought it over there from another part of the lake, etc, I think it should be called Aulonocara sp. "Mkondowe" so that way if anybody does have real Aulonocara stuartgranti Mkondowe, the steveni type version, that they don't this strain thinking it is the same thing and hybridize their fish. That's a nightmare situation we don't need.

I think the C-F map is relateively accurate. I never bothered to check it location-to-location against Ad Konings's maps but I don't see why the C-F would be wrong.

But Heyguy74, your example of the stuartgranti fish at chitimba bay, they are of the same complex...the same group... The only difference between those two is the yellow bands that run from the dorsal to pelvic fins by the pectoral fins.

I'm just trying to say is all I want to do...honestly...is just find out what this fish's proper name is. My motivations aren't to just keep disagreeing with you guys and say you're wrong....but to just try to find out what these should be called since there is another fish in the hobby also sold as Aulonocara stuartgranti Mkondowe that looks completely different from this strain that I purchased...

I mean, doesn't that only make sense? That if the fish's name just doesn't seem like it is right for that fish or if it conflicts with another fish of the same name, to for the sake of the hobby and conservation to investigate this stuff....

Let me know what you think.

[why_spyder]

It's the same reason Bill why you asked me if someone I know well was selling true Lethrinops red cap itungi or the Chirwa variant. I don't know if I told you but the reply back from them was that what they currently sell is Chirwa but anything from last year and earlier was Itungi or at least that's what they got them as.

Not to change subject, but this is definitely the case with the 'Red Cap' pair that I got. Without dropping names I got second and third opinions on the pair I have and have come to the conclusion that they are in fact the Chirwa locale even though the seller sold them to me as Itungi.

Do I hold anything against the seller, not really. He probably bought them as such and didn't do a lot of digging. Ed, I like to dig deeper into a situation if something doesn't look correct to me.

On the subject at hand, is this by any chance similar to the problem I have with Cynotilapia sold in the hobby - the case where everything is labeled C. afra 'such and such' even if they aren't an 'afra-type'? I'm not on the up-and-up with how Aulonocara are grouped and such so I don't know if that could apply here - the location being correct the name a bit off...

Also, it is not uncommon for sellers to not have up-to-date names on fish - which is fine as long as we can make sure the names are corrected at some point - even if that point is when it is in your tank. Big sellers have more important things to do than keep up with all the name changes, but it is nice if they can do it.

[fischfan13]

Seems that the Red Cap "Itungi" might not actually be a Lethrinops or...
Red Cap "Itungi" is really Red Cap "Chirwa".

I have talked with Dave and Doug about this, actually I think Ed knows something about the Lethrinops being reclassified.

[emartin]

Yeah Ad thinks that the red caps may actually be a member of Tramitichromis. I think they should be too, there's too similar to tramitichromis compared with other Lethrinops. A lot of the tramitichromis species have colored caps...