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clayn
08-23-2010, 12:11 AM
I like spaghetti westerns so here we go.

The Good


South Antarctic Krill Meal - South Antarctic Krill Meal is unique in its good protein content, its strong palatability effect, natural beta-carotene content [in the form of astaxanthine], its excellent lipids & minerals profile and its chitin & chitosan constituent. 60.0% protein, 15% fat/lipids, 1.5% calcium and 3% phosphorous
Beta-carotene astaxanthin found in krill meal has an important role in the regulation of fish’ immune system’s besides its role as a pigmentation agent, enhancing disease resistance and boosting survival rates. It is also known as an essential fish growth regulator. (Christiansen et al., 1994; J. Torrissen, 1984)
Krill meal steroidal component located in krill’s cephalotorax region has proved a powerful and efficient promoting agent in the use of the protein found in feed diets. It therefore acts as a good growth promoting agent, increasing weight gain and feed conversion rates (Allahpichay and Shimizu, 1985)
Krill meal chitin content found on raw krill’s caparison has an average content of 2-4% of chitin. This way, krill meal is being studied as an immune system stimulant for some fish species. (Siwicki et al., 1994).
Salmon Fillet Steamed - 20.0% protein and 12.0% fat/lipids

Whole Fish Meal Low Ash - Menhaden is the primary fish used in producing whole fish meal in the U.S. The whole fish has a large portion of bone removed then is dried, cooked and ground into meal. 68.4% protein, 15.0% fat/lipids, 3.4% calcium and 2.2% phosphorous

Whole Fish Meal - Menhaden is the primary fish used in producing whole fish meal in the U.S. The whole fish is dried, cooked and ground into meal. 63.4% protein, 15.0% fat/lipids, 5% calcium and 3% phosphorous

Whole Fish Meal - Herring - The whole fish is dried, cooked and ground into meal. 52.1% protein, 15.3% fat/lipids and 15.4% Ash.

Fish Protein Concentrate - Fish protein concentrate (FPC) is a highly nutritious powdered product made from whole fish, with a protein concentration higher than that of the original fish. It is intended for human consumption. Although nutritious, FPC generally has poor functional properties. Depending on its quality and degree of refinement, it can be either used as a food ingredient to boost protein content or, as in some less developed countries, eaten directly as a food product in its own right. FPC can be categorized into three grades. Type A is a tasteless, odorless white powder whilst Type B retains a fishy flavor and odor. Type C is essentially hygienically produced fishmeal. In addition to regulatory and acceptability issues, FPC is only normally made from whole fish and hence is not considered a solution to seafood waste disposal problems. 80% Protein

Tilapia Fish Meal - The heads, racks and skin are dried, cooked and ground into meal. 13.75% protein, 12.7% fat/lipids and 3.56% Ash.

Whitefish Meal - Made from white fish and white fish offal (waste parts). 64% protein, 8% fat/lipids and 21% Ash.

Redfish Meal - Made from red fish and red fish offal (waste parts). 57.1% protein, 8.1% fat/lipids and 25.3% Ash.

Spirulina - Spirulina is blue - green algae (Cyanobacterium). It is a simple, one-celled form of algae that thrives in warm, alkaline fresh-water bodies. Spirulina is 45 to 60 percent complete protein, with all essential amino acids in perfect balance. Spirulina also provides high concentrations of many other nutrients - amino acids, chelated minerals, pigmentations, rhamnose sugars (complex natural plant sugars), trace elements, enzymes - that are in an easily assimilable form. 45% - 60% protein, 6.0% fat/lipids and 8% minerals.

Kelp - Kelp or seaweed is a green marine plant that is used in various applications. Kelp is called a "miracle plant" because of its huge therapeutic properties; kelp is the best natural source of trace minerals. 7.5% protein and 1% fat/lipids.

Brine Shrimp - Brine Shrimp have very high attractant values enticing even the finickiest fish to feed. High protein with roughage from the exoskeleton provides a great supplement for all fish. The Brine Shrimp’s exoskeleton also is a good laxative. Protein 50% and Fat 2%.

Plankton, sp. Euphausia pacifica (Ocean Plankton) - These are the smaller ocean plankton about 1/4” in length, some refer to this crustacean as “Krill” also. Protein 68% and Fat 8%.

Shrimp Meal - The whole shrimp is dried, cooked and ground into meal. These shrimp are culls not suitable for human use. Protein 44%, Fat 1.7% and Ash 20.4%.

Squid Meal - Squid Meal is made from squid viscera portions from cannery plants including the eggs and testis. Squid Meal is a highly digestible protein source for fish which provides a full range of amino acids, vitamins, minerals and cholesterol (1.0–1.5%) of cholesterol suitable for fish fry and young fish. Protein 64.7%, Fat 5% and Ash 10%.

Anchovy Meal - The whole fish is dried, cooked and ground into meal. Protein 50.3%, Fat 3.3% and 26.1% Ash.

Fish Oil - Oil extracted from cold water species of fish. Protein 0% and Fat 94.5%. This ingredient should make up no more than 5% of the fish food.


The Bad (At Least Somewhat)


Blood Meal - Yes you guessed it, it is meal made from warm blooded animals mainly used as fertilizer. Protein 66.8% and Fat 1.0%. Protein level higher than almost all of “The Good” ingredients. The amino acid profile is actually good containing ten amino acids. The lack of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids makes this a less than desirable ingredient.

Beef Heart - A popular ingredient in home made fish food. Protein 17.7% and Fat 3.9%. The lack of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids makes this a less than desirable ingredient.

Wheat Middling - Wheat Middling is a by-product of the flour milling industry comprising several grades of granular particles containing different proportions of endosperm, bran and germ. Protein 12.9%, Fat 3.5%, Calcium 0.1% and Phosphorus 1.1%. Your fish don’t get much use from grain protein so this binder is roughage.

Wheat - Wheat is a grain and should be fed coarsely ground or crushed for best results. Protein 9.1%, Fat 1.7%, Calcium 0.05% and Phosphorus 0.32%. Your fish don’t get much use from grain protein so this binder is roughage.

Wheat Flour - Wheat Flour is milled for the baking industry. Protein 14.2%, Fat 3.5% and Calcium 1.0%. Your fish don’t get much use from grain protein so this binder is roughage.

Ground Brown Rice - Protein 7.5%, Fat 2.7%

The Ugly

Soybean Meal - Soybean meal is the product remaining after extracting most of the oil from whole soybeans. Protein 40%, Fat 1.0%, Calcium 0.2% and Phosphorus 0.65%. If Soybean Meal is one of the first three ingredients on the fish food label run away as fast as you can! Your fish don’t get much use from grain protein so this ingredient used as a large percentage of the food will end up rotting in your tank. As you can see using a high percentage of Soybean Meal can raise the overall protein percentage without using high quality ingredients that actually benefit your fish.

Distillers Dried Grains with Soluables - Distillers Dried Grains with Soluables is rich in cereal and residual yeast proteins, energy, minerals and vitamins. Protein 22.7%, Fat 11.9%, Calcium 0.05% and Phosphorus 0.83%. Your fish don’t get much use from grain protein so this binder is roughage.

Brewers Dried Yeast - . Protein 40 - 45% and Fat 0.2 - 1.5%. If Brewers Dried Yeast is high on the ingredients list it can deceptively raise the protein percentage.

Flaked Corn - I like eating Corn Flakes for breakfast but don’t believe they do your fish any good. 7.1% protein and 2.5% fat. Your fish don’t get much use from grain protein.

Feather Meal - Yes you guessed it, it is meal made from poultry feathers mainly used as fertilizer. Protein 70.9% and Fat 3.0%. Protein level higher than any of “The Good” ingredients. Just think how this ingredient can skew the overall protein percentage.

clayn
08-23-2010, 12:17 AM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Fischfan13/Chart1.png
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http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/Fischfan13/Chart3.png

fischfan13
08-31-2010, 10:48 AM
Thanks for sharing.:ty:

RD
09-26-2010, 01:50 AM
Some good overall info.

Hope you don't mind me adding my 2 cents worth.

For a starter, no manufacturer lists the "Minimum Digestible Protein" on their label, what they list is the minimum crude protein content.

There can be a HUGE difference between the CP (crude protein) and the DP (digestible protein). Crude protein % is nothing more than a nitrogen reading taken by someone in a lab. As we saw a few years back adding something as simple as melamine to a food product can raise the crude protein significantly in a raw ingredient, while adding zero nutrient value. As stated below, even Feather meal can add a significant amount to the protein side of the equation, while adding only a minimal amount of overall nutritional value.

Fish Meal - while it's true that Menhadden meal makes up a major portion of the fish meal produced in the USA, the vast majority of fish food manufacturers are now based in SE Asia, where generic (high ash) fish meal is being utilized. Just as white fish meal, generic fish meal consists of heads, bones, and scales, processing plant waste after the fillets have been removed.

The CP of Herring meal is typically 70-72%, not 52% as previously stated.

You can also find the NRC's (National Research Council's) amino acid stats for several forms of fish meal, including Herring meal, in the link below. Also note the CP (crude protein) content of each meal listed.

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/frg/AFRIS/Data/332.HTM


With regards to "wheat flour", just like most carbs/starches, it only becomes a "bad" ingredient if excessive amounts are used. There's a BIG difference between a food that consists of 18% wheat flour, and one that consists of 38% wheat flour. While it doesn't add much in the way of protein, when used accordingly the carbohydrates in wheat flour are easily assimilated by all fish species & utilized as a form of energy, as well as assisting in synthesizing lipids and protein. So while its primary function is typically as a binding agent, wheat flour does add some nutritional value beyond just roughage.


Finally, while ingredients are (hopefully) being listed by order of dry weight, simply viewing an ingredient list & the order of ingredients can also be somewhat misleading at times. The only way to really no what's going on is by knowing the percentage of each ingredient.

As an example, brand X may be using 600 pounds of high quality marine protein as their "main" ingredients in a 1 ton batch of food, but only using krill meal, and herring meal. (followed by the binding agent)

Brand Z only utilizes 500 pounds of marine protein in a 1 ton batch of food, but uses 5 or 6 different kinds of "fish", or fish products, and lists them separately, followed by their binding agent/s.

According to the list above brand z would actually come out looking as the better product - but is it?

Listing a greater # of fish species on the label, doesn't equate to the formula having a greater total weight of fish in the food. It often amounts to nothing more than slick marketing, and most consumers get suckered in.

Another common method of manipulating ingredient lists is what's referred to as ingredient splitting.

As an example ....

Krill Meal, Fish Meal, Herring Meal, Shrimp Meal, Wheat Middlings, Wheat, Rice Meal, Wheat Flour, Distillers Dried Grains with Soluables, Brewers Dried Yeast, Spirulina, Paprika, Limestone, Xanthophyll, Fish Oil, Lecithin, Salt, various vitamins & minerals.

If you add up all of the starch based ingredients in that formula, you might be surprised how much starch (wheat, rice, and DDGS) is actually in that formula. Just with the "wheat" alone, add the 3 wheat products listed, and wheat could potentially become the second ingredient listed by dry weight.

Quite frankly unless one is privy to exact percentages being used, ingredient listings found on fish food labels are a good general guideline, and nothing more.




HTH

clayn
10-08-2010, 03:55 PM
Thanks for your input RD. I apologize for taking so long to respond.

While working on this I found protein levels vary quite a bit from source to source. The complete article includes a reference section at the bottom including links to my sources.

I would prefer the lowest protein pellet binder be used. The grain binding ingredients amino acid profile limits the nutrient value the fish can uptake from them. It appears to me that ground brown rice is better than wheat as a binder. Are you telling me that NLS pellets contain 18% wheat as a binder?

I was told by a fish food manufacturer that to get a bar code (which all retail stores require) you have to submit your list of ingredients from highest percentage to lowest percentage to the USFDA as if the food was for human consumption. While the law here does not require listing the ingredients in any particular order the fact that they can't sell their food without the barcode prompts them to comply.

RD
10-08-2010, 04:37 PM
Are you telling me that NLS pellets contain 18% wheat as a binder?


Nope, I'm not telling you anything of the sort. I simply used those numbers as an example.

I have no idea why the amino acid content of a binding agent concerns you? The main role that a binding agent plays is to keep the food held together, it certainly should never be viewed for its amino acid profile. Certainly some manufacturers use excessive amounts of grains/carbs/starch, but typically that is done to make certain that the much more expensive protein is never utilized as an energy source. Carbs supply a cheap energy source for fish, AND they can help inflate the crude protein % on the label.

But again, they only become a "bad" ingredient when used in excess.

clayn
10-08-2010, 04:58 PM
Doesn't hurt to ask. lol

Just for fun lets say it takes 25% grain to hold the food together. In this case it means 25% of the food that you feed your fish has very little to zero nutritional value. Due to the grains limited amino acid profile the fish can't uptake the protein that it contains. It simply ends up as waste in your filter.

I will respond to the rest as I have time.

RD
10-08-2010, 06:28 PM
Nice try. lol

I'm not sure where you got the notion that grains/starch/carbs add little to zero nutritional value to a fish food?

As stated previously; "While it doesn't add much in the way of protein, when used accordingly the carbohydrates in wheat flour are easily assimilated by all fish species & utilized as a form of energy, as well as assisting in synthesizing lipids and protein. So while its primary function is typically as a binding agent, wheat flour does add some nutritional value beyond just roughage."

In commercial fish food, not everything is about amino acid content.
If it was, then I could say the same thing as you are about numerous raw ingredients, ingredients that play a very specific role in the overall nutrient profile of the food, yet offer little if anything in the way of amino acids.

A quality binding agent is key in any commercial pellet, as how well the final product holds up once entering ones tank is critical in how well those nutrients are retained until your fish consumes that pellet.

clayn
10-09-2010, 11:47 AM
The digestive tract of a fish is not designed to assimilate grain protein. While some fish with long digestive tracts can asimilate some grain protein it doesn't make it a viable source of protein. I am not aware of any tests that have been conducted but believe predatory fish with short digestive tracts don't benefit at all from grain protein. I am aware that a certain percentage of binder is needed to hold the pellet together but lets not pretend it is a good source of protein. I don't hold the fact that wheat is third on the list against NLS because it is the only binder in the food. The first two ingredients (Krill and Whole Fish Meal) are excellent. I especially like Krill as the first ingredient.

RD
10-09-2010, 04:18 PM
This isn't about NLS, or any of the other brand mentioned in your initial post. It's about supplying accurate information, and not spreading misinformation. While I'm sure spreading misinformation is not your intent, that is precisely what you are doing when you make statements such as the one above.

While carbohydrates are not a necessary component in a fishes diet, they do play a role in commercial feed, beyond just being used as a binding agent. Carbohydrates, including various forms of starch & grain, also supply a source of energy to a fish, assist in synthesizing lipids and protein, and when used properly, are indeed a viable source of protein.

I have no idea where or how you have come to the conclusion that grains cannot be a quality source of protein in fish feed, but you are dead wrong. There are hundreds of scientific papers/ journals, and peer reviewed studies that prove just how viable protein from terrestrial plant matter is when utilized in aquaculture feed.

That does not equate to grains being the "best" source of amino acids, or even that one should utilize large quantities, but to state that they are a bad source, or provide zero nutrient value, is ridiculous.

Even those species that in the wild are considered strict carnivores, or piscivores, are able to produce enzymes such as amylase, which is produced to break down carbohydrates.

This is a very complex subject, one that would take several pages for me to explain fully, but suffice to say that while grain protein is able to be utilized by most fish species, it is not the best source of protein, and in almost all cases it's use must be limited. Depending on the species, will depend on how much grain can be utilized in the feed without affecting the overall growth & health of the fish.

As previously stated, carbs/starch/grains only become a problem when used in excess. This is due to their limiting amino acids, their anti-nutritional matter, and even their overall palatability to a fish.

Here's a good read that may help clear some of this up for you.
http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/523/utilisation-of-plant-proteins-in-fish-diets

http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/196810.html
At the same time, we also raise new questions about the upper limit of feed levels of carbohydrate in this species. Depending on the source and quality of dietary carbohydrate, the aquaculture industry standard of 20% carbohydrate represents a "conservative" value. We documented outstanding growth performance of trout receiving 24% (mostly wheat flour) or even 30% (mostly purified starch) fed aquaculture rations or to satiety, respectively.



From the NRC's Nutrient Requirements of Fish, which is pretty much the bible for every commercial fish food manufacturer. Not the be all to end all, but a great reference source to work off of for tropical species.


The nutritional value of carbohydrates varies among fish. Warm-water fish can use much greater amounts of dietary carbohydrate than cold-water and marine fish. No dietary requirement for carbohydrates has been demonstrated in fish; however, if carbohydrates are not provided in the diet, other compounds, such as protein and lipids, are catabolized for energy and for the synthesis of various biologically important compounds usually derived from carbohydrates. Thus, it is important to provide the appropriate concentration of carbohydrate in the diet of the fish species being cultured.



The problem with carbs is that unless they are used immediately as an energy source, they get stored as glycogen, and eventually converted to sugar, and then fat. This is exactly why one can find some VERY large obese specimens that have been fed generous amounts of lower quality high starch food. No different than a human that eats a large amount of white starch. (bread) You will still grow, and get big, but eventually become obese.

So a big middle aged Italian guy like Bill had better be running 10 miles every morning, or cutting back on the pasta. :neener:


Foods that contain excessive amounts of carbs/starch/grains do not make for a healthy fish, especially those species that are more on the carnivorous side of the equation. They are made with commercial fish farms in mind, where the fish are not expected to live long term, and large gains in growth & saving costs on feed are the main priority. It doesn't make them bad, or mean that they can't, or even shouldn't be utilized in aquaculture feed, it simply means that you need to pick the types correctly (those with little to no anti-nutritional matter), and use them in a limited manner where they will provide health benefits, and not become a negative in the formula.

Unfortunately this is not the case with many manufacturers, who choose to choose CHEAP carbs, over what's going to serve the fishes best interest.
For myself, that means no soybean meal, no middlings, no corn or corn by-products (including DDGS), no 'mystery' starches or dried bakery products (such as found in certain Hikari formulas) no pea meal, no potato protein, etc.

Below is a classic example of a fish food that I would personally never feed any of my fish, even if I won a lifetime supply for free. The ironic part is this product has been one of the most popular feeds by discus owners for the past 25 years or more. Just goes to show what resilient creatures fish are.


Ingredients:

Fish Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Wheat Germ Meal, Wheat Flour, Corn Gluten, Feeding Oat Meal, Potato Protein, Shrimp Meal, Dried Yeast, Wheat Gluten, Monobasic Calcium Phosphate, L-Lysine Monohydrochloride, Lecithin, Algae Meal, Soybean Oil, Yeast Extract, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Inositol, Niacin, A-Tocopherol-Acetate, Riboflavin-5-phosphate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (Stabilized Vitamin C), Choline Chloride, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Palmitate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Cyanocobalamin, Cholecalciferol, Manganese sulfate, Zinc sulfate, Ferrous sulfate, Cobalt nitrate. Coloring Agents: Beta-Carotene, Red 3 dye, Ethoxyquin and Citric Acid both as Preservatives.




HTH
Neil

clayn
10-25-2010, 12:56 PM
I apologize for the delay. The contract job that I have been working since July ends this week. At that point I will have a lot more time for discussion.