Food Face Off

[clayn]

I have been thinking about doing a controlled food trial focused on breeding. The fish will more than likely be Haps. or Peacocks. It will definitely be either a Malawi or Tanganyikan mouthbrooder.

I would like to hear from you since I don't keep fish from Malawi. Any of them more difficult to spawn than the others? I am not looking for impossible to breed fish but simply fish that don't spawn at the drop of a hat. What size tank would you suggest for thirty of the fish that you suggest?

Probably doing three foods with all other parameters being identical. Two foods come to mind in NLS and Xtreme Aquatics. What would you like to see as the third food. I am kind of thinking Dainichi but am not completely sold on it.

I want to find out which food is the best! I would love to get your thoughts.

[fischfan13]

My choice would be Lethrinops, for two reasons.
Lethrinops, IMO, are not breeding machines. There are times that you can get them to breed back-to-back months, and there are times that they will not breed for a few months.
NLS and Xtreme are two great choices.

If I had to pick a Tang it would be Ctenochromis Horei. Like the Lethrinops you would be able to see the subtle differences in their colorings, if any, with the choice of foods. The other reason?
I bred these for the first few months that I had them, and then the male killed everyone off...so I would like to see someone in a controlled experiment work with them.

[Afreakin]

My choice would be Lethrinops, for two reasons.
Lethrinops, IMO, are not breeding machines. There are times that you can get them to breed back-to-back months, and there are times that they will not breed for a few months.
NLS and Xtreme are two great choices.

If I had to pick a Tang it would be Ctenochromis Horei. Like the Lethrinops you would be able to see the subtle differences in their colorings, if any, with the choice of foods. The other reason?
I bred these for the first few months that I had them, and then the male killed everyone off...so I would like to see someone in a controlled experiment work with them.

My input would be a Wild Furcifer or Foai. See how a veggie flake would do versus the other more rounded foods. By that I mean NLS and Extreme.

FF13, the key to Horei not killing off the females is to have a nasty male neolamp in the tank, it will give the females a safe haven to retreat to. All IMO

[fischfan13]

My input would be a Wild Furcifer or Foai. See how a veggie flake would do versus the other more rounded foods. By that I mean NLS and Extreme.

FF13, the key to Horei not killing off the females is to have a nasty male neolamp in the tank, it will give the females a safe haven to retreat to. All IMO


Sorry, don't mean to go off topic, but Afreakin where is the females "safe haven"? Are they hiding behind the Neolamps?

[clayn]

What do you think of either Dainichi or Omega One as the third food? The foods would need to be intended for the same type fish and similar in size if a pellet was used.

I am thinking of using standard 75 gallon tanks since they are a common size.

I am currently working with wild C. Furcifer Kigoma in a 6' 100 gallon. They haven't bred yet. It takes the wild foai/furcifer a long time to settle in IME. My other foai/furcifer breed regularly.

How aggressive are the Lethrinops? It would be really bad to get halfway though the trial and have the dominant male go on a killing spree.

[Flareside]

what do you think about including a non-name brand food such as something from Kens? Then you could compare the more expensive name brand versus an economical alternative- just to see how they stack up?

[clayn]

what do you think about including a non-name brand food such as something from Kens? Then you could compare the more expensive name brand versus an economical alternative- just to see how they stack up?

That would be interesting. May end up doing several trials before it is all said and done. I want to test the better known Brands first and then may look at the winner vs. other foods.

[Longstocking]

Lethrinops shouldn't go on a killing spree... very mellow fish :)

Maybe a group of Eretmodus? If you put 30 in a 75... it should work as a group :) Plus they aren't too expensive.

lol... c. horei... would work as well... but I would fear deaths. Probably not the best choice IMO.

[clayn]

Lethrinops shouldn't go on a killing spree... very mellow fish :)

Maybe a group of Eretmodus? If you put 30 in a 75... it should work as a group :) Plus they aren't too expensive.

lol... c. horei... would work as well... but I would fear deaths. Probably not the best choice IMO.


Our mutual friend Myles volunteered to do a group of Gobies. Someone who wants to find the best food is providing the fish and food.

Would Lethrinops fry/juvies be easy to get rid of? How many and at what ratio would work in a 75 gallon?

Any other fish come to mind? How about a third food?

[Longstocking]

How about one of HBH's pellets? One that a lot of breeders used to like and some still use is the soft and miost with krill.

Dainichi is still very popular with Petro/tropheus people....

Are you wanting to try the "most used and popular" ? Isn't HBH Attack used by a lot of newer people in the hobby?

I think it would depend on the variant of Lethrinop....

I know one of the copad's are harder to breed ... can't remember which one... I think the "midnight" variants. Not a malawi person as you know lol....

[Afreakin]

Sorry, don't mean to go off topic, but Afreakin where is the females "safe haven"? Are they hiding behind the Neolamps?

Yes! If the male is tough enough the male Horei will have his place and the male neo will have his. This worked great for me and when the female was ready to breed she would accommodate the male. I sold my pair to Peter and he decided to take the red spot isanga out of the tank and within a week the female was dead. My pair was very prolific as well.

[clayn]

As for the food I have been looking at the Brands with a higher profile. I can see no reason not to conduct more trials after the completion of the first one.

What do you think of Otopharynx lithobates for this purpose? I might not have to give the fry away like kittens.

Malawi help needed!

[fischfan13]

Clay, when do you want to start this, how many fish are you looking for and would you consider Lethrinops Red Cap Chirwa?

[CrabbyMatty]

Clay,

I'd really like to see you work with Placidochromis Phenochilus. I've been working with a group for a while and haven't been successful in breeding them. Of all the Malawians I've bred, these are the ones proving to be the toughest nut to crack. They are such a peaceful species (my group is 3M/6F) that I haven't even witnessed spawning behaviour yet. They just casually cruise around the tank with males and females getting along great together. I have previously witnessed two females holding and regret not catching them in the act of spawning. I'm not convinced the females didn't act alone. But alas, after a day or two the eggs were gone and they were back to cruising and feeding. So if you are up to the challenge, give these a try and then please share your secrets. BTW, I feed NLS pellets.

Matt

[clayn]

Clay, when do you want to start this, how many fish are you looking for and would you consider Lethrinops Red Cap Chirwa?

Thank you for the generous offer! I don't have a problem with Lethrinops. The thing is I am doing the food trial for a fish farmer in Florida. His farm produces 250,000 rift lake cichlids a year. He has offered to send me any fish I choose, provide the food and set me up with three tanks for the trial.

It has to be equal in every way besides the food brand for it to mean anything. That would include M/F ratios. The fish farmer can send adults at any ratio requested. These tanks must be clones for it to mean anything.

I would be willing to give the fry/juvies produced to ECC members. All I ask is a little input and participation.

[RDTigger]

Thank you for the generous offer! I don't have a problem with Lethrinops. The thing is I am doing the food trial for a fish farmer in Florida. His farm produces 250,000 rift lake cichlids a year. He has offered to send me any fish I choose, provide the food and set me up with three tanks for the trial.

It has to be equal in every way besides the food brand for it to mean anything. That would include M/F ratios. The fish farmer can send adults at any ratio requested. These tanks must be clones for it to mean anything.

I would be willing to give the fry/juvies produced to ECC members. All I ask is a little input and participation.

You sir, have my full attention. :coool!:

HBH Attack is widely used and sold. I would mention Aqueon Cichlid foods as well. They are offered all over now.

[clayn]

Clay,

I'd really like to see you work with Placidochromis Phenochilus. I've been working with a group for a while and haven't been successful in breeding them. Of all the Malawians I've bred, these are the ones proving to be the toughest nut to crack. They are such a peaceful species (my group is 3M/6F) that I haven't even witnessed spawning behaviour yet. They just casually cruise around the tank with males and females getting along great together. I have previously witnessed two females holding and regret not catching them in the act of spawning. I'm not convinced the females didn't act alone. But alas, after a day or two the eggs were gone and they were back to cruising and feeding. So if you are up to the challenge, give these a try and then please share your secrets. BTW, I feed NLS pellets.

Matt

Hi Matt,

I would love to work with Placidochromis Phenochilus. They may very well be available. I like the fact that they are peaceful! Some in the hobby keep secrets to themselves. I am not one of them. I am very open about what I have discovered that works and what doesn't.

Thank you very much for your input!

[fischfan13]

Clay,

Are you definitely set on NLS and Xtreme?
IMO, I would like to see those as two of the foods.
The third choice, does it have to be a major brand?
Do you have a set criteria on what the food should and shouldn't be?


Thanks,
Bill

[zebra7]

I agree with Bill, I also like the NLS and Xtreme. If I had to pick a third it would be Hikari Cichlid Excel. Another excellent food, good ingredient's, and used by many, including myself.

[clayn]

Clay,

Are you definitely set on NLS and Xtreme?
IMO, I would like to see those as two of the foods.
The third choice, does it have to be a major brand?
Do you have a set criteria on what the food should and shouldn't be?


Thanks,
Bill

I am set on NLS and Xtreme. One breeder I know recently switched to Dainichi and claimed to have an increase in spawning activity in all of her tanks (malawi and tang). Does Omega One still have a large following? The third food needs to be a high quality food on the same level as the others. Like I said earlier the trials don't have to end after the first one.
The food should be intended for the type of fish kept and be the same size.

[clayn]

I agree with Bill, I also like the NLS and Xtreme. If I had to pick a third it would be Hikari Cichlid Excel. Another excellent food, good ingredient's, and used by many, including myself.

Thank you for your input Anthony! Hikari Cichlid Excel duly noted.

[clayn]

You sir, have my full attention. :coool!:

HBH Attack is widely used and sold. I would mention Aqueon Cichlid foods as well. They are offered all over now.

Thank you for your input! HBH Attack and Aqueon duly noted.

[clayn]

The test will include the following foods: NLS, Xtreme, Dainichi, Omega One and Hikari Cichlid Excel. The fish farmer has agreed to start feeding brand xyz to the subjects once they are taken off brine shrimp. The containers holding the five foods will all be plain save the FOOD "A" designation. I think it would be best to get a third party to receive all of the food and put it into the plain containers. That way nobody involved in the test will know which brand is which until the end.

What do you think of the food choices?

[zcfish]

You'll probably can tell which food is which even if you label them food a, b, c.

I suggest Wardley cichlid pellets. Probably considered junk food by many. That's the one I bought before I know anything about cichlids. available everywhere. Maybe for your later trials.

[Tony]

Hi Clay.

I started to respond to this thread yesterday, but got sidetracked at work.

In general Malawi fish are easy to breed across the board. Give them room, give them the right ratio and clean water and bang... you have holding females. My O. lithobates breed like Aulonocara; there's always females holding.

I'm pretty new to the BAP thing, but with Malawi cichlids, I believe the difficulty ranking stems from three categories: large and/or aggressive species, species that take forever to mature and species that have screwed up breeding cycles/behavior.

For the large and aggressive fish, the same thing holds true... give them space, ratio and clean water and you're good to go. This is obviously more difficult when trying to breed 14" male haps (hence a higher tier on the BAP scale). But I believe that you would probably want to rule these guys out because there is no real reason to go to this scale (large 4'/100+ gal tank for Nimbos and 6' tank for the larger predators) if their breeding behavior/frequency is not that much different than Aulonocara (which can be kept in a 30/40B if you'd like). Plus, there is going to be a very limited market for getting rid of the hundreds (of not thousands) of fish this project may generate.

Another category above, the fish that take forever to mature is where the P. phenochilus comes in. I have a quad of 4"-5" phenos (which were not easy to find) which I would guess are at least 1.5-2 years old. I do not believe that they will start sucessfully spawning for another 6 months or so. I would put some of the large Protomelas, P. milomo and some Copidichromis in this boat.

Then there's the last group... not unruly, not always slow growers (which the lethrinops are btw), but just have irregular breeding behavior. I would throw the lethrinops into this group. I am not sure of the factors, but have heard that thees fish may breed based on cyclic/lunar activity. From what Matty said, the phenos may also be in this group of weird spawners (perhaps due to their serious lack of aggression).

I have a group of fish - Naveochromis chrysogastors that are egg stealers/eaters. They make a living bumping holding females and grabbing eggs that fall out of their mouths... they've held a few times, but I have not had luck pulling them at the right time. For this reason, they can be grouped in somewhere between aggressive and weird.

So out of the "difficult" Malawi fish to breed so far I would certainly rule out the large/predator haps. You may also want to rule out the very slow growers if you cannot start with adults. If you do this, you may be introducing an outside factor - breeding experience into the experiment. Assuming you will have three different males all about the same size in three different tanks. In all likelihood, these three males came from the same brood and came up in the same growout tanks. One will be dominant (and may have already spawned before) while the other two will be subdom. The dom will most likely, immediately start breeding, while it may take the other two to sort of get the hint.

For this reason, I would not recommend fully mature fish... get some that you will have to grow out a bit in order for them to breed so that you can give the subdom males a chance to work up their libido.

As others have suggested, I like the ideas of phenochilus and the lethrinops, but the real question would be availability/startup cost for the groups. Both would be easily sold, but getting groups of sub-adult fish (2"+ for the lethrinops, 4"+ for the phenochilus) may prove difficult/expensive.

Personally, I would be excited to see either of these species bred in this type of study.

Jeeze.. I'm sorry. I'm talking in circles and this post is getting long...

Hope this helped and didn't confuse you more.

:beerchug:

[Tony]

Edit: I took a while to crank out that post and after I posted it, saw you mention that the breeder would start feeding X brand right off of baby brine shrimp. So we're thinking that the fry for this study are just being born now?

If this is the case, the slow growers are simply not an option unless you are willing to continue this study for 2-3 years....


I'd like to also add that my recommendations are based on personal experiences and I am far from an expert. Take them for what they're worth.

[clayn]

You'll probably can tell which food is which even if you label them food a, b, c.

I suggest Wardley cichlid pellets. Probably considered junk food by many. That's the one I bought before I know anything about cichlids. available everywhere. Maybe for your later trials.

At least only two people will have a chance to guess which food is which.

[clayn]

As others have suggested, I like the ideas of phenochilus and the lethrinops, but the real question would be availability/startup cost for the groups. Both would be easily sold, but getting groups of sub-adult fish (2"+ for the lethrinops, 4"+ for the phenochilus) may prove difficult/expensive.


Thank you for the information!:runnningaround::runnningaround::ty:

Lethrinops simply because of their smaller size are looking good at this point. How long do they take to grow out to breeding size? Would a standard 75 gallon be too large?? I have tried to check on availability of Lethrinops with no luck yet. The fish are being donated by the way.

[Haplee]

I like the food choices that you made . I use the first three NLS, Xtreme and Dainichi, so I will be interested in the results. I like the Dainichi the best myself for my Malawi mbuna. I am curious as to which of the Dainichi foods you will use. Good luck with your project.

[Tony]

Thank you for the information!:runnningaround::runnningaround::ty:

Lethrinops simply because of their smaller size are looking good at this point. How long do they take to grow out to breeding size? Would a standard 75 gallon be too large?? I have tried to check on availability of Lethrinops with no luck yet. The fish are being donated by the way.

No problem, Clay. I think that they are a good bit slower than peacocks, so perhaps they'd be about 8 months old before they'll start breeding. I have attempted to grow some out, but starting at an inch or so and not had solid luck. Can anyone confirm?

For tank size, I would say you could get away with a standard 30 gallon or a 40 Breeder for most of the 5" lethrinops. Some get larger (furcifer, lethrinus), but most that you see being offered stay around that size ("Red Cap," "Albus," "Black Fin").

Discusnafricans (Mike) breeds Albus like wildfire in a 30 gallon.

P. phenochilus would need a 75 gallon long term.

[Longstocking]

I don't remember when I got the red caps... maybe you do Tony. But mine have bred already. She spit/swallowed.... but one female did breed. Probably because she was in a 10 gallon.

I still haven't mananged to hook up with Mike to trade the red caps.

Are you going to measure the food by weight? I would think that would be the only way for it to be a controlled test.

[clayn]

I don't remember when I got the red caps... maybe you do Tony. But mine have bred already. She spit/swallowed.... but one female did breed. Probably because she was in a 10 gallon.

I still haven't mananged to hook up with Mike to trade the red caps.

Are you going to measure the food by weight? I would think that would be the only way for it to be a controlled test.

Either weight or teaspoon/tablespoon.

[clayn]

Would ECC be willing to host weekly video links of each tank? That way everyone could follow along. I want this to be as transparent as possible!

[emartin]

Weight would be better and more controlled way of doing this. You can get digital jewelry scales on ebay cheap that will tare and measure in gm, oz, carats, etc and have high resolutions for measuring.

Using tsp/tbsp isn't very accurate as the pellets can create air pockets, or crumbles of pellets can add a lot more weight to it, etc. For an extended feeding trial I think you'd want to have the exact same amount of food (by weight) fed each time.

[emartin]

My haplochromine suggestions:

The following are difficult to find (but not impossible to get), and some are even just a challenge to get the males to color up let alone breed.

All Stigmatochromis species excluding S. modestus
This includes:
S. 'tolae' <---I have only seen it wildcaught from Atlantis and from German/Danish sources
S. woodi <---I have only seen it wildcaught from Atlantis and Old World and Dykemyster fish, and from German/Danish sources
S. 'guttatus' <---I have only seen these for sale from German/Danish sources
S. pholidophorus <--have seen them forsale tank/pond raised, and ValleyAquatics has/had them in stock (ECC sponsor)
S. 'spilostichus type' <--Old World Exotic Fish breeds them. Tony has a colony he's working with. Dykemyster Fish has them in stock now and can pretty much get them anytime from Old World if you want them.

Ctenopharynx species.... I have yet to see a photo online or in Ad's books of a male in breeding dress... I don't know if it is because they are difficult to breed, or just rare, or both. Currently Valley Aquatics (ECC sponsor) has wildcaught Ctenopharynx pictus Liuli for sale. Pretty much very very few people keep that genus worldwide...all the photos I've seen online were from Japan I think.

Diplataxodon limnothrissa <---if you want a REAL challenge :D. Currently only available from Danish/German sources. SUPER rare haplochromine...and I'd imagine very difficult to breed.

Sciaenochromis ahli (the real one)
Sciaenochromis benthicola
^maybe the europeans have those?

Hemitaeniochromis species... I have yet to see a photo of these species in breeding dress. Two species were imported a few years ago but I haven't seen them for sale since.

Most of those species aren't that hard to get (compared to some others I have in mind LOL) and I can help you track them down if you want.

Good luck!

[clayn]

Weight would be better and more controlled way of doing this. You can get digital jewelry scales on ebay cheap that will tare and measure in gm, oz, carats, etc and have high resolutions for measuring.

Using tsp/tbsp isn't very accurate as the pellets can create air pockets, or crumbles of pellets can add a lot more weight to it, etc. For an extended feeding trial I think you'd want to have the exact same amount of food (by weight) fed each time.

You and Sarah are right! I will have to get a set of digital jewelry scales.

[emartin]

You and Sarah are right! I will have to get a set of digital jewelry scales.

Digiweigh is a good brand.

I bought this model a few years ago off ebay...can't beat that price:

http://cgi.ebay.com/DigiWeigh-Digital-Pocket-Scale-0-1-600-Grams-new-/290461569404?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

And another one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-DIGIWEIGH-100-x-01-Gram-DIGITAL-LAB-SCALE-Balance-/220646398033?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

[clayn]

My haplochromine suggestions:

The following are difficult to find (but not impossible to get), and some are even just a challenge to get the males to color up let alone breed.

All Stigmatochromis species excluding S. modestus
This includes:
S. 'tolae' <---I have only seen it wildcaught from Atlantis and from German/Danish sources
S. woodi <---I have only seen it wildcaught from Atlantis and Old World and Dykemyster fish, and from German/Danish sources
S. 'guttatus' <---I have only seen these for sale from German/Danish sources
S. pholidophorus <--have seen them forsale tank/pond raised, and ValleyAquatics has/had them in stock (ECC sponsor)
S. 'spilostichus type' <--Old World Exotic Fish breeds them. Tony has a colony he's working with. Dykemyster Fish has them in stock now and can pretty much get them anytime from Old World if you want them.

Ctenopharynx species.... I have yet to see a photo online or in Ad's books of a male in breeding dress... I don't know if it is because they are difficult to breed, or just rare, or both. Currently Valley Aquatics (ECC sponsor) has wildcaught Ctenopharynx pictus Liuli for sale. Pretty much very very few people keep that genus worldwide...all the photos I've seen online were from Japan I think.

Diplataxodon limnothrissa <---if you want a REAL challenge :D. Currently only available from Danish/German sources. SUPER rare haplochromine...and I'd imagine very difficult to breed.

Sciaenochromis ahli (the real one)
Sciaenochromis benthicola
^maybe the europeans have those?

Hemitaeniochromis species... I have yet to see a photo of these species in breeding dress. Two species were imported a few years ago but I haven't seen them for sale since.

Most of those species aren't that hard to get (compared to some others I have in mind LOL) and I can help you track them down if you want.

Good luck!


Point taken. Plenty of very difficult fish to work with from Malawi. The test will be pointless if none of the fish breed! What I am looking for is something that is medium difficult to spawn so that I am not over run with fry. What do you think of Lethrinops or P. phenochilus as test subjects.

[Crowned]

Cyrtocara moorii

150 gallons

Omega One super color sinking pellets

[clayn]

My haplochromine suggestions:

The following are difficult to find (but not impossible to get), and some are even just a challenge to get the males to color up let alone breed.

All Stigmatochromis species excluding S. modestus
This includes:
S. 'tolae' <---I have only seen it wildcaught from Atlantis and from German/Danish sources
S. woodi <---I have only seen it wildcaught from Atlantis and Old World and Dykemyster fish, and from German/Danish sources
S. 'guttatus' <---I have only seen these for sale from German/Danish sources
S. pholidophorus <--have seen them forsale tank/pond raised, and ValleyAquatics has/had them in stock (ECC sponsor)
S. 'spilostichus type' <--Old World Exotic Fish breeds them. Tony has a colony he's working with. Dykemyster Fish has them in stock now and can pretty much get them anytime from Old World if you want them.

Ctenopharynx species.... I have yet to see a photo online or in Ad's books of a male in breeding dress... I don't know if it is because they are difficult to breed, or just rare, or both. Currently Valley Aquatics (ECC sponsor) has wildcaught Ctenopharynx pictus Liuli for sale. Pretty much very very few people keep that genus worldwide...all the photos I've seen online were from Japan I think.

Diplataxodon limnothrissa <---if you want a REAL challenge :D. Currently only available from Danish/German sources. SUPER rare haplochromine...and I'd imagine very difficult to breed.

Sciaenochromis ahli (the real one)
Sciaenochromis benthicola
^maybe the europeans have those?

Hemitaeniochromis species... I have yet to see a photo of these species in breeding dress. Two species were imported a few years ago but I haven't seen them for sale since.

Most of those species aren't that hard to get (compared to some others I have in mind LOL) and I can help you track them down if you want.

Good luck!


Fortunately I have a friend with access to german stock. Take a look at the list in this link:
http://www.cichliden-stadl.de/stockm.html
and pick out something for me to breed. He has at least one tank raised fish on your list and several wild caught species. The tank is a 6' 100 gallon.

The fun in the hobby for me at this point is working with difficult fish.

[emartin]

Fortunately I have a friend with access to german stock. Take a look at the list in this link:
http://www.cichliden-stadl.de/stockm.html
and pick out something for me to breed. He has at least one tank raised fish on your list and several wild caught species. The tank is a 6' 100 gallon.

The fun in the hobby for me at this point is working with difficult fish.
Fish that caught my eye on that list:
Ctenopharynx nitidus 4 - 5 cm
Lethrinops spec. Mbasi (Rainbow) 4 - 5 cm <---VERY VERY PRETTY SPECIES! http://www.malawi-dream.info/Lethrinops_sp_mbasi_creek.htm
Mylochromis subocularis 4 - 6 cm
Stigmatochromis tolae 5 - 6 cm RARE
Stigmatochromis woodi 5 - 6 cm
Copadichromis mloto Kirondo Multicolor 8 - 10 cm <---I wonder what species this is? Sounds interesting
Ctenopharynx intermedius 9 - 12 cm
Ctenopharynx nitidus 8 - 12 cm
Ctenopharynx pictus 8 - 12 cm
Hemitaeniochromis urotaenia 12 - 15 cm
Stigmatochromis pholidophorus 9 - 11 cm
Trematocranus placodon 8 - 10 cm <---forgot about this one. Neat species. Currently ValleyAquatics has a bunch of them in stock

[nick a]

I have been thinking about doing a controlled food trial focused on breeding. The fish will more than likely be Haps. or Peacocks. It will definitely be either a Malawi or Tanganyikan mouthbrooder.

I would like to hear from you since I don't keep fish from Malawi. Any of them more difficult to spawn than the others? I am not looking for impossible to breed fish but simply fish that don't spawn at the drop of a hat. What size tank would you suggest for thirty of the fish that you suggest?

Probably doing three foods with all other parameters being identical. Two foods come to mind in NLS and Xtreme Aquatics. What would you like to see as the third food. I am kind of thinking Dainichi but am not completely sold on it.

I want to find out which food is the best! I would love to get your thoughts.


I'm sorry to come in so late to conversation and ask these questions.

So you set up your 3 (or more) identical tanks and feed each population with a different food.

1. What will be your criteria for judging which food was the best? .....first group to breed? ....the group which produces the most fry in a given time span?.....the group which maintains significant breeding activity for the most number of years?

2. How many times are you planning to repeat this exact trial before you are ready to make your determination?

3. Is the long term health of the adults part of the equation?

These ?s may be irrelevant to anyone but nut cases like me :runnningaround:

[clayn]

Fish that caught my eye on that list:
Ctenopharynx nitidus 4 - 5 cm
Lethrinops spec. Mbasi (Rainbow) 4 - 5 cm <---VERY VERY PRETTY SPECIES! http://www.malawi-dream.info/Lethrinops_sp_mbasi_creek.htm
Mylochromis subocularis 4 - 6 cm
Stigmatochromis tolae 5 - 6 cm RARE
Stigmatochromis woodi 5 - 6 cm
Copadichromis mloto Kirondo Multicolor 8 - 10 cm <---I wonder what species this is? Sounds interesting
Ctenopharynx intermedius 9 - 12 cm
Ctenopharynx nitidus 8 - 12 cm
Ctenopharynx pictus 8 - 12 cm
Hemitaeniochromis urotaenia 12 - 15 cm
Stigmatochromis pholidophorus 9 - 11 cm
Trematocranus placodon 8 - 10 cm <---forgot about this one. Neat species. Currently ValleyAquatics has a bunch of them in stock

I looked up some of these and found Ctenopharynx nitidus
http://www.malawi-dream.info/Ctenopharynx_nitidus.htm
a nice looking species.

Understand this is not for the trial but simply the challenge of breeding a difficult /rare species. If I can get them to breed it would one provide a cool new species to work with in the U.S. and two help heal my deeply bruised fish breeding ego.

Help me pick something that is difficult to breed and has not been imported into the U.S. I need a species that would breed in a 6' 100 gallon so that rules out the true jumbo's. Like I said earlier breeding rare/difficult species is what I enjoy in the hobby!

[clayn]

I'm sorry to come in so late to conversation and ask these questions.

So you set up your 3 (or more) identical tanks and feed each population with a different food.

1. What will be your criteria for judging which food was the best? .....first group to breed? ....the group which produces the most fry in a given time span?.....the group which maintains significant breeding activity for the most number of years?

2. How many times are you planning to repeat this exact trial before you are ready to make your determination?

3. Is the long term health of the adults part of the equation?

These ?s may be irrelevant to anyone but nut cases like me :runnningaround:

1) One criteria will be fry count over a period of time.

2) The trial will be for a period of time yet to be determined.

3) Yes that will be noted also. I am thinking if a fish dies in one tank an equal fish should be removed from the others.

[clayn]

Bill....Are the Lethrinops still available? How many do you have? Are they all the same size? What have you been feeding them? How many juvies would you start with in a standard 75 gallon?

[CrabbyMatty]

Bill....Are the Lethrinops still available? How many do you have? Are they all the same size? What have you been feeding them? How many juvies would you start with in a standard 75 gallon?

He has ten less than he used to have clayn. :becky:

[clayn]

He has ten less than he used to have clayn. :becky:

LOL...How many should I start with in a 75 gallon?

[CrabbyMatty]

LOL...How many should I start with in a 75 gallon?

I may leave that to Bill or others to answer mainly because I'm only concerned with growing mine out at the moment . I have them in a 15G and there's one particular male that has stepped forward in a very big way. He looks spectacular. Although it isn't my intention at the moment, I have no doubt these fish will breed in this tank. I have other Lethrinops species that have done the same. I won't worry about collecting any fry at this point. They can use this moment as a learning period. I'll just be sure not to allow the females to hold for an excessively long period of time.

[Afreakin]

I want to throw this out there, I have recently started feeding tetracichlid crisps and my feather fins and cups have really turned on as far as breeding goes. My furcifer has colored up and my micros have started to breed. Just my .02 cents

[Tony]

I looked up some of these and found Ctenopharynx nitidus
http://www.malawi-dream.info/Ctenopharynx_nitidus.htm
a nice looking species.

Understand this is not for the trial but simply the challenge of breeding a difficult /rare species. If I can get them to breed it would one provide a cool new species to work with in the U.S. and two help heal my deeply bruised fish breeding ego.

Help me pick something that is difficult to breed and has not been imported into the U.S. I need a species that would breed in a 6' 100 gallon so that rules out the true jumbo's. Like I said earlier breeding rare/difficult species is what I enjoy in the hobby!

:coool!:

Bill....Are the Lethrinops still available? How many do you have? Are they all the same size? What have you been feeding them? How many juvies would you start with in a standard 75 gallon?

:confused3:


What happened to trying something that couldn't be readily found in the states? I mean, Lethrinops sp. "red cap" are by no means common, but I know of at least a few folks in ECC/CCA who keep them.

If you're gonna put in all that effort for all that time, then you should go big. :thumb:

[clayn]

I have apparently hijacked my own thread which has led to confusion.

Two different topics:

1) The Fish Food Trial

2) Working with an uncommon species from Malawi


Clarifications:

1) Working with an uncommon species in the food trial is not practical for a couple of reasons. A friend has agreed to donate fry for the trial. Importing enough juvies for the trial would be quite expensive.

2) I have a 90 gallon that will be empty soon. I have talked with my friend who imports fish about getting Lethrinops Mbasi Creek for me on the next order. If they are still available I am going to get a group of them. I know that they are not extremely difficult to breed but they are very pretty fish and I don't think anyone in the U.S. has them. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I apologize for any confusion that I may have caused in this thread.

[CrabbyMatty]

For me the thread seemed to change direction several times making it confusing to follow and undertand all the objectives of your ambitious project. For a while I was going back to the beginning to re-read the posts to better understand it all, but now with over 50 posts I don't think I'll be doing that anymore. I keep several Lethrinops specie groups now so I'm interested in your latest choice. More than anything I'm wishing for the ideas to end and the test/trials to finally begin so that in time the results can be shared. Good luck Clay.

[clayn]

Let me give a little background information that has led to me doing the food trial. Back in May I was running out of fish food. I had been unemployed since last August with a few contract jobs sprinkled in here and there. I had some spirulina powder and freeze dried plankton on hand. I read on how to make your own food. I ended up using canned salmon, hard boiled eggs, fd plankton, spirulina, fd daphnia, fish oil, corn starch and garlic. This worked well but I soon figured out that making your own food was more expensive than simply buying it. I wanted to learn more about which ingredients were beneficial to your fish and which were not. Long story short I wrote an article including a chart comparing around thirty fish foods. The chart is not my opinion it simply lists the first three ingedients on the label and protein and fat percentages. I made the chart so that I could see many different fish foods in a condensed form to compare them. I sent the article including chart to several friends in the hobby and received a very positive response. This led to one of them offering to sponsor the food trial if I would agree to do it. I accepted the offer because I believe that it will benefit the hobby.

I will post the ingredient list and chart shortly. I don't mean to speak for Bill or Sarah but both have read it and from all indications believe that it will benefit the hobby.