Plants in sand...

[emartin]

Does anybody know for a fact if plants will grow (plants like crypts, vallisneria, anubias, aponogeton, etc) if their roots are placed in Quikrete/Sakrete All Purpose Sand? (all natural sand, from various river banks, beaches, etc)

How deep should the roots and sand be?

Or if I want to keep plants should I go with Pool Filter Sand? Something else?

Or a very fine/small gravel (like 2-4mm pieces)???

Plants NEVER survived in the sand in my tanks with 3M Colorquartz S-Grade as the sand substrate...my guess because that sand was too 'artificial' and packed too well and heavier than normal natural sand.

~Ed

[exasperatus2002]

Ive seen Vallisneria growing in sand. You plant it up to the crown like any other plant. Coarser sand is a little better then fine sand since it doesnt compact as much, making it easier on the roots.

[joe_jaskot]

Yes you can grow most plants in sand. Sand bed should be 1"-2" or more. Plants like anubias and java fern are grown attached to something or floating. If you provide plants with adequate lighting and nutrients, they will grow in almost any substrate.

[CJC]

I have Val. growing in sand, it does very good. If you want some, let me know.

[twisted fisher]

mighnt want to switch to flourite.

i have flourite in all my shellie tanks cause down the road i gonna add plants just need to find some that i like and can handle the high ph

[jerseyhokie]

Couple things, by no means am i an expert at this but i have been running a planted for a little over 6 months now so ill try to help.

I use beach sand, (specifically from manasquan) and i have no problem with plants. I currenty have huge swords a few anubias and some new crypts growing nicely as well as some just platedjava fern and slowly carpeting riccia. Anubias has a rhyzome that will rot if it is buried so it is not fully planted. Also sand is a poor substrate because it lack the iron most root feeders require. Root Tabs or peat moss will remedy this nicely. If you like the look of sand you can layer subrates like fluorite under the sand but it can get messy.

Also depending on the sand you have it may be high in silicates which can lead to diatom problems (less important in fresh than it is in saltwater)

[twisted fisher]

yeah flourite takes a ton of rinsing i should have mentioned that

[CJC]

Ed,
you can layer the substrate but, in a short period of time you will have the salt & pepper effect. The small sand will settle down towards the bottom.

[fishbuddy]

I used to layer sand and flourite, but gave up years ago and just mixed them. pool filter sand is cheap about $8 for 50 lbs, Flourite is $24 for 10lb by mixing them you can go alot further for less money. Just sand will work for some plants, but heavy root feeders will not make it (IE swords) without root feeding.

[BlondeFishGal]

I used to layer sand and flourite, but gave up years ago and just mixed them. pool filter sand is cheap about $8 for 50 lbs, Flourite is $24 for 10lb by mixing them you can go alot further for less money. Just sand will work for some plants, but heavy root feeders will not make it (IE swords) without root feeding.

I gotta support the notion that long term, sand will not be enough for root feeding plants, and that over time, sand tends to compact which is not good. If you are doing attached plants to driftwood, rocks, etc., then of course it doesn't matter, but for plants rooted in the sand itself, some might do better longer than others, but long term, the plants will show the effect.

As for Flourite, I use that A LOT in my tanks and I never rinse it. I lay it in the tank, put a couple of dinner plates over it, pour the water slowly over the plates, and it makes much less of a mess that way. Yeah, still makes a bit of a mess, but it clears in a day or two.

There are also other substrates you can use and lots of folks mix plant-substrate with gravel and or sand. Takashi Amano has been showing white sand in the front of his tanks alot these days, but not planting that area at all.

[Tony]

Hey Ed,

Personally, I've always used larger substrate for planted tanks... Currently, Fluorite in one tank, Fluorite Onyx in another. Larger substrate allows for better water exchange to the bottom of the tank. This allows for better access to nutrients as well as improved gas exchange to the roots.

In a denser/sand substrate, the first issue is easily overcome by using root-tabs or something similar. While it is a slower process, it will work.

My bigger concern has always been roots dying off from lack of oxygen and getting gas pockets in the substrate. I'd say keep an eye on it... stick your finger down into the substrate from time to time and make sure you don't get sulfur dioxide gas rising up. You can also check by looking up through the bottom of the tank. Healthy roots will quickly hit the bottom and will spread across the glass.

On my big tank, I have an undergravel heater, which is set 1 degree higher than the rest of the tank. The resulting convection currents continually exchange water from open space to the substrate. These setups tend to be a bit on the expensive side and would not be necessary for a moderately planted setup.

There are a ton of different schools of thought on the ideal substrate. I have seen awesome planted tanks ranging from low tech to super high tech with substrate ranging from Fluorite to sand to dirt to plain aquarium gravel.

The "easy" plants you mentioned should do just fine in a coarser sand like the one you're talking about. I woulld say the coarser, the better, but then again, I'm no expert.

Just keep an eye on the roots and you'll be fine. :)


EDIT: I was posting the same time Alesia was and didn't catch her response. She is right, you may have long term issues because all sand will compact over time, which may precipitate the issues above.

[twisted fisher]

i have fluorite in all my shellie tanks for the color and buffering fact and i agree its a bit pricey but in the long run its a great investment.

now anyone got a few good recommendations for tang tank plants?

EDIT: i was posting while everyone else was LOL
MTS can always be added for the compacting factor of the sand to keep it loose and moving

[Tony]

iMTS can always be added for the compacting factor of the sand to keep it loose and moving

+1 :)

[Greenhacker]

I've been using Qucikcrete Premium Play Sand in my 110 with very little success for my plants. It seems to compact too heavily, which does not allow enough oxygen exchange at the roots. This is also very apparent when I do my water changes. If I go deeper than an half an inch, the sand goes from a nice pinkish tan to grey due to high concentrations of anaerobic bacteria.

I've had very good success growing plants using "masonry" sand in my old tanks. It just takes the right mix of finds to allow water to flow subsurfacely... If that's a word. Just try calling a landscape company near you and ask them if they have any or know where you can pick some up. It's just the sand they use when mixing up concrete and mortar.

As to the long term, just put down a sub layer of laterite. Don't rinse it, but don't add water until you have covered it with sand and then do so slowly so that the dust filters into the sand. Let it settle with water just covering the top of the sand and then fill the rest of the way being carefull not to disturb the sub layer. I had my best results using that and florite in one of my first planted tanks $$$. But It doesn't take a lot. Otherwise you can just spot fertilize by injecting Flurish ect. with a plastic syringe right at the base of the plants. Saves on ferts and helps keep your water column from becoming saturated with excess ferts.


Good Luck!

[Anubias Design]

Couple of things: first, sand is fine for plants. The problem is that it compacts and becomes anaerobic over time. The way to avoid that is to use a substrate heater. The ones from Hydor seem to work very well. Second, you need to add iron and other nutrients to the substrate. You can add a product like laterite to the sand or gravel. Do this instead of using a product like Fluorite, which is insanely overpriced and does not give you control over the amount of nutrients you're adding to the tank, i.e. you're more likely to have algae problems when you use the commercially available plant substrates. By adding the amount that you want based on the number and type of plants you're growing, you can avoid a lot of problems. Third, almost all aquatic plants will do as well or in most cases better when kept in hard, alkaline water compared to the soft water that most of the self-proclaimed experts tell you that they need. In hard water with a high level of carbonate hardness, they'll grow better than they will in soft water with CO2. See the Adventures in Aquascaping column in TFH from May through August of this year for more detailed information.
Mark

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

I'd love to have a planted african tank if I could stop them from chewing on them, and shredding them. They'd be fine without the fish LOL

[Anubias Design]

I'd love to have a planted african tank if I could stop them from chewing on them, and shredding them. They'd be fine without the fish LOL

That's really not difficult at all. I've done it a number of times. You just need to feed a heavy spirulina diet and they will usually leave the plants alone. There are some exceptions, such as frontosa, that eat everything but all the Malawis and most of the Tangs are fine with plants.
Mark

[jerseyhokie]

Mark,
that bit about hard conditions as opposed to soft water is really interesting. Could you share more of your experience with hard water and plants?

[BlondeFishGal]

Mark,
that bit about hard conditions as opposed to soft water is really interesting. Could you share more of your experience with hard water and plants?

Mark, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this too, b/c unless you are talking about vals and such, and tanks with low lighting that allows for certain plants, my personal experience and those of my plant pals have been quite different. And even Robert used CO2 in his set up with the first installment of the Adventures in Aquascaping series that you mentioned that just launched in TFH. I believe you are doing the next one, so I am assuming it is sans softwater and certainly sans CO2. Looking forward to reading your take on things! ;)