Ptychochromis nossibeensis

[emartin]

Any info on these? How big do they get, aggression, stocking levels, would they fit in a 75g or a 60g, etc?

To me it looks like if I go the Madagascar route for my next non-malawi cichlid tank I will be trying that species or Katria katria...

~Ed

[AlishanAS]

I kept a reverse trio Ptychochromis oligacanthus for a several months in a 55g. I believe the Nosy Bee is varient of the oligacanthus.
The tank was definitely too small as the dominant male was 7". They seemed fairly peaceful within that tank. I gave then to Adam's Pet Safari when I could not provide a large enough tank for them.

They inhaled any food I gave to them from Hikari pellets to mysis.

[emartin]

Were they peaceful, bred at all, or picky on water quality?

Have any photos of yours?

I'm looking to keep some Indian or Madagascar species and currently I noticed Jeff Rapps has P. nossibeensis (and you are right I believe it is now considered a variant of oligacanthus) in stock. Otherwise I was going to either keep Katria katria if I can get someone to stock them (I know Dave Schumacher gets them periodically) or Etroplus surantensis which is brackish...

~Ed

[AlishanAS]

I found them to be fairly peaceful. They were kept in aged tap water with a pebble substrate. They did not breed for me.

I will check with YAP regarding photos since he in my official Alishan photographer.

[Sharpfish]

P. nossibeensis, P. oligacanthus, P. sp. Northern redfins are all the same fish. From what I have read they are color variances from different collecion sites. The tanks sizes you mention are probably to small for a community tank. At full grown size most of the Malagasy cichlids will push 8" plus. A pair will do nicely for a while in those sized tanks but, may need more space soon or later.

[emartin]

P. nossibeensis, P. oligacanthus, P. sp. Northern redfins are all the same fish. From what I have read they are color variances from different collecion sites. The tanks sizes you mention are probably to small for a community tank. At full grown size most of the Malagasy cichlids will push 8" plus. A pair will do nicely for a while in those sized tanks but, may need more space soon or later.
I heard the same also about those three supposed species. From what I understand, there are only two true species... P. grandidieri and P. oligacanthus...

Anyway thanks for the reply. Currently it looks like I'll be keeping them in a 150g I obtained...

[Sharpfish]

There are at least 8; P. oligacanthus, P. grandidieri and P. inornatus, Ptychochromis makira (previously known as P. sp. "Makira"); Ptychochromis loisellei (previously known as P. sp. "Nord Est"); Ptychochromis curvidens (previously known as P. sp. "Montagne d'Ambre"); Ptychochromis insolitus (previously known as P. sp. "Mangarahara"); and Ptychochromis onilahy. I would imagine that the last more recently described fish are much harder to obtain. I would to find them, if anyone has them let me know. I have the grandidieri and the oligacanthus already.

[emartin]

Well on the profile of P. loiselli on cichlidae.com it says he has them in his aquarium, and if I am not mistaken he works at NY Aquarium or Coney Island aquarium so I could always try and contact him and see if would be willing to sell some fry if he has any to spare.


~Ed

[Sharpfish]

If it was ever possible to get fish from Dr. Loiselle, I am definitely in for what ever it would take (almost anything). I think he is at the NY Aquarium. PIttsburgh is a fish dead zone. I have had to ship most everything I have in. Wally

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

I see him at every monthly meeting and can ask him for you. Most of the time he is always willing to spread fish. I have acquired a lot of fish from him in over 20 years I have know him.

[emartin]

I see him at every monthly meeting and can ask him for you. Most of the time he is always willing to spread fish. I have acquired a lot of fish from him in over 20 years I have know him.

See if he's willing to lend out a few Ptychochromis loiselli! I'd certainly grab a couple (as long as they aren't a fortune) and set up a species tank for them.

~Ed

[Sharpfish]

Yes, please do any Malagasy cichlid would be greatly appreciated.

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

Ok I will see him on 2/19 at the meeting, if he shows up. If not then I will get his number and see if he has any and can bring them to the March meeting. Then I can bring them out 04/04 auction for you.

[emartin]

Ok I will see him on 2/19 at the meeting, if he shows up. If not then I will get his number and see if he has any and can bring them to the March meeting. Then I can bring them out 04/04 auction for you.
You don't have to hang on to them until the auction. Personally, since this is a newer species and isn't even in the hobby yet I'd MUCH rather several of us get them into species tanks immediately to help make them available... I wouldn't even be surprised if this species is already endangered too...

[Sharpfish]

Ed brings up a good point. I would not want to have them bounced from room to room, to much handling may be a bad thing. Wally

[JonV]

I agree with most everything everyone has said so far. I acquired this species back in November, the male adult, about a good 4-5 inches, and a pair of females from a different keeper, local to me.

At first, the male showed little to no interest in the females, from Thanksgiving time frame until just the beginning of January. I noticed in the first week of January, the male began to chase the females around the tank, luring them to spawn. This began Wednesday, and by Thursday night Jan 8, 09, they began to build a nest site. By Friday Jan 9, 09, I woke up to find the females deposited eggs on 2 different locations.

One spot was elevated in the tank, on top of the surface of a brick about 3 inches above the gravel. The other female had deposited on a small bumpy shell in the substrate. The male gave little interest to the female on the brick and she abandoned that site within 24 hours, and the eggs were consumed by the community fish. The one in the pit, got a large amount of attention by the male, and began hatching by Sunday the 11th. The female would go to the eggs, and actually pick up the wigglers and move them to a spot about 6 inches in back of where the eggs were laid.

From there, after all the wigglers were collected, both the male and female watched over the site with good vigor. It might be helpful to list what I had here at his point.

100 gallon tank, 1-2 inches of gravel substrate, filter is an Aquaclear 110, temp steady at 80. Tank was mature as well, over 1 year running. Not sure on my pH, GH, and KH though. I'd been slowly adding more aquarium salt in the past 2 months, which I am sure helped.

Stock at the time of spawning in the 100 was, and I say was because after speaking very breifly with Dr. Loiselle about what happend, I have altered the stock last week.

1 Male 2 female Pytchochromis Oligocanthus
7 3.5 inch unsexed Paratilapia Polleni
6 various sized unsexed Tilapia Bythobates
27 2 month old Labidochromis Car (labs) fry
1 .5 inch Pseudotropheus Crabro
6 1 inch Xistochromis Phytophagus
about 12 differnt cory catfish (I know not an appropriate mix on water, but they've done quite well in there for over 6 months straight)
1 6 inch Hop Lo catfish
and 2 2 inch Clown Plecos

Now what happend after about 10 days of fry watching by mom and dad, I woke up one moring and found no fry visable. They had moved from wigglers that couldn't do anything but bounce up from the gravel to the water and fall back down, to able to free swim up above the gravel. I estimated around 50-60 I could see, hard to count accurate though. That morning, I couldn't find any, mom was not in the site, but dad was, and only just sitting there. Some of the Yellow labs were swimming through the site, and dad was doing nothing to ward them off.

After briefing Dr. Loiselle and another keeper I was buying some Lipochromis Sp. Mutambai Hunters from, they both feel, the bottom feeders got in and ate the fry at night. Dr. Loiselle pointed out to me on the phone, that in their natural habitat, there are extremely few catfish as it is, and very likely, the Pytcho's didn't percieve the bottom feeders as a threat.

Chalk that up as a learning experience, as since, I have now transferred all the bottom feeders over to my 180 gallon tank. The male a few days after, got quite overbearing on those females, and injured them. I moved them down to my 15 gallon fry/hospital/isolation tank, but one female died from the injuries.

Aggression I have to say I find the male gets very excited on spawn time, and will take to assisting the female quite well in defense of the nest. It's been reported, it does not always happen but for me it did. I am not sure if it was due to the loss of the fry and the male not having anything to do, but I'd advise based on what happend in my case, if you lose fry, to move the females out and condtion them. My male beat the hell out of the two females shortly after to where I lost one.

[Sharpfish]

Sorry to hear of the loss. You are right you will have to chalk it up to experience. Hopefully the surviving female will be able to handle the next sexually onslaught and will be able to produce viable fry again.

[JonV]

Thanks Sharp. I dunno what to make of them now. The male just sits up at the top of the tank, not doing much of anything. I added a new egg laden female in I picked up last week, little to no interest in doing much of anything at this time.

[emartin]

By the way JonV do you have any photos of your pair? There's very few photos of them online and I'd like to get a better idea of what they look like...

And sorry for your loss. At least now you know to remove the fry..stupid bottom scavengers ruining the spawn :angry:

~Ed

[JonV]

Not much of stills but this is the male and female in the substrate site. The smaller darker one is the female:

http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view&current=011009_2016a.flv

http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view&current=011009_2017a.flv

This is the female that built the site up on the brick:

http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view&current=010909_1919b.flv

The stills the seller gave me of his male and females in his tank:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/fish0042.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/fish0032.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/fish0012.jpg

What I found worth noting to other people I've talked to about this species, females are much smaller, and darker. Males really much bigger and lighter.

[Sharpfish]

The action of the male has my interest. Was there a change in the tank beside the catfish, beat up female removal and addition of the new female?

[JonV]

Not really no. Lately, all he's doing is just sitting up at the top by himself. When he got overbearing on the females, I put him over in my 180 for a couple days. I have my much bigger Haps and my Malaysian Golden Jardini in that tank. Might sound funny, but he might have had the crap scared out of him in that tank or something, because he sure is very mellow now.

What concerns me a bit here, when he gets active, he's rushing down to the rocks in the tank rapidly and scraping himself off the rocks and then goes back up to the top.

I have a suspicion, not sure how to confirm. As I understand, many of these Madagascars, when adult, prefer and almost need brackish conditions. Maybe there is a drop in the salt levels causing him some stress?

[JonV]

Seriously too, I actually spoke with Dr. Loiselle on the phone from Vinmans place in the Bronx when I picked up the hunters, and now I want to shoot myself for forgetting to ask him about the brackish aspect. I couldn't believe my luck that I'd actually get to talk in person to a man of that stature. Was a hell of an honor for me, and I owe some big thanks to Vinman for that. I'm going to have to ask next time how big of a role does brackish play in this species, if the man isn't too busy. This might be something important.

[joe_jaskot]

Jon, come join North Jersey Aquarium Society. You can see Dr. Loiselle at the meetings. You can also meet quite a few of us.

[Sharpfish]

He may have contracted a illness. The scraping and lethargic behavior sounds like Ick or Gold Dust. From what I understand they are suspect to to these ailments especially from varying water conditions (mostly temp). You may have raise the temp in the tank he is presently in and add salt to the tank anyway. A hospital tank may not be a solution (moving him again) for the problem instead it may compound it.

[JonV]

Thanks Sharp. If he has something, it's something he's had since I got him. No afflictions going on in the 180, but the stress and changes, if that's bringing something out in him dormant, then he's had that from the get go.

Little story about this male.

When I got him shipped to me, the seller was on Colorado. He did ship overnight, and as best I could see, used some tranquil in the bag. However, he didn't double bag it, and no heater pack. He was sent out of Colorado to NJ the week beginning Thanksgiving. It was around 30 or so over here abot that time.

The bag had a leak in it, and when it hit my door, USPS gave it to me in a USPS plastic box because it was that wet. The box crumbled apart when I opened it, found the bag, almost 100% deviod of water. Just literally a few milliliters of water, enough he could just pass something through his gills only. He was lying flat on his side.

I was trying to move the bag for a good photo shot to show a DOA unopened bag and I saw his gills still moving. I went to call Carl, the site I listed on AmericanAquariumProducts since he's the best person I know on fish problems to see if this might be just residual never twictches on a dead fish, when he tried to right him self moving the bag around.

I realized he was actually still alive, and I immediately began acclimating him rapidly. Gave three cups of my tank water just to have something to breathe, and I took another 90 minute, half cup tank water to the bucket I put him in, and added a good dose of Meth Blue to assist O2 uptake.

First couple days, he got picked on a bit by the Zebra Obliquedins I had in the tank, so I took them out. He'd stay mostly on the bottom, not moving much but had life. The next few days after that, he began to move up into the tank, but wouldn't stay level. Head up tail downward. After 7 days, increasing the salt slowly and giving him occaisional meth blue baths, he was quite active, looking 100% better and moving around. This poor guy's been through quite a bit.

Up until early Jan though, he showed little to no interest in the females. I'll be doing another water change in the tank tonight, and I'll be adding some Buffer max and API salts to the new water. I have high hopes this will perk him up as well as take care of anything he might have been carrying. Thanks for the tip Sharp.

[emartin]

I have no idea for sure, but from what I hear Madagascans during the summer (well, since it's almost on the equator, the hotter months) the freshwater temperature can get VERY close to 90F... I am not 100% sure but that's what I've heard. Of course, if you do raise the temperature that high you'd need lots of air stones...

Anyway, the next time JonV you get a chance to speak with him could you ask him about the water temperature?

~Ed

[JonV]

Sharp,

Good call. Took a look in the tank the other day, and saw sprinkled salt look on some of the Polleni, and has to be an Ick outbreak. Dosed the tank pretty good with Quick Cure and Copper Sulfate, and now the male is a bit more active. Looks like it's working pretty well. Should get a spawn by end of month I think or sooner. Both females are pretty egg laden just waiting on the male to do his thing.

[Sharpfish]

I am glad you caught it in time. I will expect pictures of the little buggers when they arrive. Keep us posted.

[JonV]

Well I have some good news to report sort of. The male has stopped staying at the top of the tank, and has begun to dig up a nice little pit. He's starting to show some slight coloration on the dorsal fin and in the body. I got a cheap cam too and got a few stills of it. I'll post that in a bit. Looks like he's getting ready to lure in the females. Mixed blessing though. By end of month, I'm looking to relocate to a better place and save expenses same time, I may have to break down this tank for a move in a couple weeks. I'm gonna be pissed if I break up a potential spawn.

[JonV]

Pit area

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/PICT0045-1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/PICT0046-2.jpg

Standing up and admiring his own work

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/PICT0047-2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/PICT0049-4.jpg

[Sharpfish]

Jon is the male that was ill, or is this a new fish? His fins seem to be short for a male. The dorsal and anal have white edges like new growth. Is that from the sickness and medication? If it is the male from a few weeks ago he certainly seems to have recovered well. Preparing a spawn site is a good sign. Wally

[JonV]

Wally,

That's the same one. Only male I have. One of the two females I first got, he killed, so I picked up a second female from Vinman in the Bronx. I am not sure where he got his from, but she was already fairly fat and egg laden.

He spent about the last five to six weeks, just sitting up on the top of the tank doing little to nothing at all. Something did get in the tank, somehow it was Ick as I found white powdery spots on some of my Polleni. I treated with a heavy dose of quick cure and small dose of copper sulfate.

I just did a water change in there last night, and that seemed to perk him up too. I increased the salt content by a bit as well. I should have noted this before, but it appears that salt is a big key to how these guys act. This 100 gallon tank was mostly just keeping excess Malawi's before and I hadn't been using any significant levels of salt, even when I first acquired the Pytcho's. Since I did start raising the salt to near brackish levels, their activities have increased quite a bit. He's got the gravel practically down to the glass now.

The colorations on the dorsal fin seem to heighten when he's become active in pit building which I am assuming is a sign of wanting to spawn. Given when I first got him, the time from Thanksgiving to early Jan, about six weeks, and since that spawn until now, close to six weeks, I'm kind of wondering if he's not on some sort of biological cycle.

[JonV]

Here's some updated shots of his pit progress I just took after last post

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/PICT0004-6.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/PICT0006-5.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/PICT0001-5.jpg

That Hop Lo will be comming out if I see eggs being put down.

[AlishanAS]

There was a nice pair of Ptychochromis oligacanthus at the NJAS benefit auction. I believe they were donated by Jeff Rapps.

[Sharpfish]

I am glad to hear that he is doing well now. The fins coloring up and the pit digging are definite good signs of health. I hope he is not to brutal on the new female. Keep us posted on the spawning developments. Wally

[JonV]

Alishan,

I got my 2 females from Jeff actually. I figured getting the male from one seller and the females from another would be a good idea. However, he did kill one of those two. The one I picked up from Vinman is much smaller then the female from Jeff I have left, but has a big old belly full of eggs.

Wally, yeah I'm watching and I think it shouldn't be too much longer now. Now he's looking for the females in the tank and trying to attract them, which is a good sign as well. Last time when he up and decided to spawn, it took maybe 2 days. Right now though these females aren't looking very receptive to him, so this might take a bit longer. Still, this is a 1000 times better then what it was a month ago.

[JonV]

Sorry I was away for a bit. My router broke down and was cut off from internet until just this morning. Friday night into Saturday morning, the bigger female put down a batch of eggs and that male took care of it and then some. Almost all of them were fertilized. I could only count maybe 5 white eggs.

Black dots in the eggs appeared late Saturday night, and all day Sunday. Last night, the female began moving the wigglers into a different area. Here's a few shots of it. I am estimating about 200 or so in this spawn, and all catfish are GONE this time.

http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/....30109_1046b.flv


http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/....30109_1047a.flv

That was finding the eggs Sat morning, this is the wiggler group this morning.

http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/....30209_0840a.flv

[JonV]

Sharp, I got my counts on my spawn back end of Feb/Early March.

I put them along with all my mbuna spawns roughly the same age, within a week to 10 days of apart in my 100. I counted 217 off the spawn, about 1 month old now.

I posted to gregga and basically got ignored that I had a spawn. He'd mentioned that he would be open to trade some of this species for some Paratrolpeus Menarambo, but looks like he's busy. Oh well, I can only list what I have. I did manage to find some other sellers of young Menarambo's for a relatively cheaper price, so I'm just going to assume the interest dropped off since there was no reply here nor on the other forum, and get a group from a different supplier.

I'll try to get you some fry pics, but these guys are still fairly small. Not much to look at at this point, but the count is 217. I'll be more then happy to sell off as many as anyone wants when they get a bit bigger, and Dr. Losielle mentioned to me that the Bronx Zoo/Aquarium Society would likely be intereseted in some, and I have a friend in another forum that is an assistant with CARES. I'll probably be donating some of this spawn to them as well. At 217 offspring, that's the biggest spawn I've ever had, and giving a few to some aquariums and programs here and there, that's not a problem at all LOL.

Mom and dad did a SUPER job with them this time. Clearly the absensce of the bottom feeders made the difference. This species when spawing, this is the third go round, and consistantly are hatching within 48 hours, no egg eating at all from the male or female. Both male and female when the eggs were incubating were seen fanning the eggs, and at about the 36-40 hour point as some early hatch, the parents manually move the wigglers to a seperate location off the spawn site. Thought I might share that with you all.

[Sharpfish]

Wow! That is a good amount of fry. Have they tried to spawn since then? I am guessing you left the eggs with the parents. Was there any other fish in the tank with them?
I just got my group into a 55 gallon a couple of weeks ago. They are still small the biggest is closing in on 4". But the good news is he has shown vast improvements in his color and behavior. He is digging and defending his corner of the tank. So hopeful soon I will have good news to share with you.
Wally

[JonV]

Not yet Sharp. Yes I did leave the fry in with mom and dad, because they were doing such a great job watching over everything to the point where I got more worried about the other fish in the tank, then the fry. The pair is VERY protective. I had a small group of Xistochromis Phytophagus and a small group of Labidochromis Caeruleus in there, and basically mom and dad pinned the Fulu's on one side of the tank and the Labs on the other and wouldn't let anyone or anything approach the fry. Hell I put the siphon in for a water change and dad spent like 5 minutes biting it.

I weeded out fry every week, like 40 one time, 50 another time, 75 another week slowly, and then basically, since all I had was the 15 gallon tank, plus spawns off 3 Flavus females, 1 large Protomelas Steveni Albino, and a final spawn off my Lab female who killed herself shortly after, I had too many fry for a 15 to hold up. I took all the adults out of the 100 and put them in the 180, and now my 100 is a fry grow out of mixed species.

They are due for another spawn if the cycle process I noted is accurate, but they seem to be lost still in that 180. They swim together and always look hungry, but no pit building appears to be imminent at this time. Still, that's enough fry for the time being anways, now I know the trick was right, no bottom feeder/noctournal fish at all with a substrate spawner. I don't know where I'm going to find homes for all these offspring as it is LOL I don't forsee a huge market for this species since it is rather plain looking.