Kens 1mm color pellet.

[mack74]

Anyone use this yet. I have been using it and my fish seem to love it. Its also cheaper than nls.

[Chris]

Whats the price different and how does it compare to nls?????

[triscuit]

Ken's is made of inexpensive ingredients (blood meal and poultry by-product) so I'm not surprised Ken's is cheaper than NLS. I would be concerned that the blood meal (highly soluble in water) would add excess nitrogen to your tank compared to other foods. I don't think I'll be trying it.

[Flareside]

I was told by Ken himself that a favorite NY supplier and sponsor of ECC will be or is using this food

[Spooky_Fish]

"....CRUDE FAT 19.0% MIN...."
That seems like a lot of fat for tropical fish.

[Flareside]

1mm. Big Mac pellet...:hungry:its the McDonalds of fish food.

[Dykemyster]

We have tried this food and it is OK but for an overall long term solution it does not compare to NLS in my opinion. While this food may be cheaper than NLS it really is not that inexpesive when you compare it to other foods like HBH African Attack which is what I would recommend to folks that refuse to pay the NLS price (recommend HBH African Attack for Aulonocara and Haps). Of course, I am speaking mainly for Malawi Cichlids with my use of the food and comments of the food.

Blood meal is the main ingredient in many of Kens fish food.

What do we use for the best fish we can possibly sell to our customers you may ask?

We use these NLS foods for our main diet for almost all of our fish:
Cichlid Formula
Thera A
Thera A Medium
Medium
Large
Grow
Small fish

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

None of my fish would eat the attack pellet's. I tried them because I like most HBH foods.

[Flareside]

my fish actually go crazy for HBHattack pellet...which is good because I see Ken every few weeks or so, so I grab a few 1/2 pound bags at a time from him.

I also feed Kens brine flake mixed with veggie flake. That combo works well for me.

If I had plenty of money I would be feeding myself filet mignon and lobster tails, my cats would be getting fish and chips, my dogs would be getting prime rib
Since Im not independently wealthy or a seller or breeder I feed my fish HBH and Kens brine flake rather than NLS LOL

[triscuit]

I'd hardly call NLS the culinary equivalent of lobster or filet; that label would be reserved for the stuff from one of those freaky hobbyists who make their own food from fresh shrimp and peas or something.

Nor would I call Ken's the equivalent to McDonalds- perhaps KFC. :becky: I like to think of NLS as the fish food with the highest ratio of quality:value (you get what you pay for).
But, it takes me nearly a year to go through a 5lb pail of NLS, so perhaps my idea of value is a bit different than it would be if I went through that much in a month.

My furry pets are spoiled too. :neener:

[emartin]

In my opinion the only brand with top notch, fantastic ingredients is Ocean Nutrition pellets... I use it as a supplement/treat, or for new fish that aren't used to pellets yet, etc. (with Dainichi following it, and then NLS)

And I owe Mark Denaro for getting me hooked on that brand. It is FAR from being a staple diet for my fish, but I do always keep it around. As a staple I feed Dainichi food as it is just awesome... NO preservatives... And the vitamins and spirulina (or krill coating depending on the formula) is added after the cooking phase FRESH and untouched (one thing that's a little annoying with the brand, the pellets can be sticky and give you green thumb XD). The downside is it is a hard pellet (well the sinking formula is) and some delicate eaters (NON CICHLID) may not like it. The good news is it softens just after like 30 seconds in contact with water.

Anyway this is what's in Ocean Nutrition Formula One Pellets:
Ingredients
  Shrimp, Euphasia pacifica plankton, sardine, wheat flour, fish eggs, soya-lecithin, Spirulina, salmon oil, garlic, minerals (potassium iodide, iron oxide, manganese sulfate, magnesium oxide, zinc sulfate), MPAXTM (Marine Protein Amino eXtract: fish meals, hydrolysates, select amino acids (L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, L-Trytophan)), vitamins (ascorbic acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin B12, nicotinic acid, riboflavin (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), tocopherol acetate (vitamin E), Betaine, calcium propionate, potassium sorbate, ethoxyquin, carotenoid pigments (astaxanthin, canthaxantin), yeast (Beta-glucan).

Guaranteed Analysis
Protein (min.) 41.1%
Fat (min.) 9%
Fiber (max.) 2.4%
Moisture (max.) 14.5%
Ash (max.) 10.5%

And Formula Two:
Ingredients
  Shrimp, Euphasia pacifica plankton, sardine, wheat flour, squid, fish eggs, soya-lecithin, Spirulina, salmon oil, garlic, minerals (potassium iodide, iron oxide, manganese sulfate, magnesium oxide, zinc sulfate), MPAXTM (Marine Protein Amino eXtract: fish meals, hydrolysates, select amino acids (L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, L-Trytophan)), vitamins (ascorbic acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin B12, nicotinic acid, riboflavin (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), tocopherol acetate (vitamin E), Betaine, calcium propionate, potassium sorbate, ethoxyquin, carotenoid pigments (astaxanthin, canthaxantin), yeast (Beta-glucan).

Guaranteed Analysis
Protein (min.) 38.1%
Fat (min.) 9.7%
Fiber (max.) 2.8%
Moisture (max.) 14.5%
Ash (max.) 10.5%

Both are available 1mm - 3mm.




I really would NOT recommend using pellets that have bloodmeal and poultry by-product (pretty sure that is FEATHER meal).

You're better off buying cheap flake in bulk, or NLS (it's only $49.99 for a bucket... (just over 5lbs)), or Dainichi (a little more pricey but worth it IMO).... Or just buying frozen food in BULK and feeding that to your omnivorous->carnivorous fish... Like buy a couple kilos of brine shrimp, plankton, mysis, etc.

I will say the Golden Pearls Kensfish + Yourfishstuff sell is amazing... They are the only retailer I know of selling it in small quantities, and the stuff is amazing for fry... They love it, and it stays in the water column for about an hour due to micro air pockets so it doesn't just sink to the bottom and not get eaten.

[Flareside]

Anyone use this yet. I have been using it and my fish seem to love it. Its also cheaper than nls.

To answer the OP, if your fish like it and its cheaper...go with it. Enjoy the hobby.

[zebra7]

I've used NLS in the past, and still like the growth formula. I was never blown away by the cichlid formula though. Never had problem's with it, but I wasn't getting the spawn's from my fish that I was from other diet's. I've alway's used Dainichi as a staple and was very happy with it's result's. Lately I've been using alot of Xtreme ( http://www.extremeaquaticfoods.com/ ) and can't say enough about it, Great food !

[Julie]

I use Ken's food almost exclusively... partially from a cost point of view with all the different kind of fish I feed, but also from a service and quality stance. The fact that he *sells in bulk* but packs it in smaller quantities is a great help to me.

I used NLS for a long time, excellent food imo, but for some reason I tended to overfeed more with it, and it colored my water much more than any other food. This was mainly in the tropheus type tanks, where my best luck has been with flake food, and the fish do better about cleaning it up (because it's easier to see?? )

I also used HBH for a long time, tropheus loved and did very well with their flake, but then they changed formulations, fish didn't like it, it was highly colored, etc, so I went shopping.

I don't worry too much about the fish meal and the degradation products, etc. as I try to minimized problems with that with not overfeeding and with wc's. Nutrition is a different matter of course. In that mostly I'm in an "all ears" mode, looking learning with the rest of you!!

[clayn]

My 2 cents.

The "My fish really like Food X" is not a good reason to feed that particular food. Most fish food manufacturers add attractants to their food. If for no other reason than to impress us. It is much more important that the fish are getting what they need to thrive. You can coat corn flakes in a fish attractant and they will eat them with gusto. Unfortunately corn flakes have very little protein that your fish can use.

The pellets being discussed are not very good in my opinion. Fish Meal could be ok. There are two kinds of fish meal: Whole Fish Meal-Made from whole Menhaden Parts Fish Meal-Made from fish heads, racks and skin. Wheat Flour is a binder. Not real high in protein but the fish don't benefit much from grain protein. Blood Meal should not be used for making fish food. It is extremely high in protein but lacks the amino acids for the fish to use the protein. Where does the protein the fish can't use end up? Your filter.

[Big ED]

Artie son of moses and i feed a good deal of omega sea and they now offer pellets in addition to the flake. We feed this as our main food and have had good success. Variety is the spice of life so no one food everyday is the best. Pm artie and he can hook you up with some omega sea as just a change of pace.

[RDTigger]

NLS is an awesome food from my wxperiences and I value quality ingredients. I found most ONutrition, especially Formula 2 and veggie wafers to be great sources of natural nutrients and minerals.

That being said I think any one food cannot be a cure-all long term and like humans fish need a balanced diet so varying foods is beneficial to there overall health.

[RD]

As a staple I feed Dainichi food as it is just awesome... NO preservatives...

The feed mill that makes Dainichi most certainly has preservatives in their food. (the fish meal they use is preserved with ethoxyquin) Dainichi doesn't have to list it on their label as they don't add any "extra" to their formulas.

ON foods, used to be a decent food several yrs back, until they sold out to Aqua Pet Americas & the manufacturing process was moved to Asia. Personally I'm not a big fan of shrimp grown in intensive, and/or semi intensive farm applications, where the use of antbiotics etc are the norm in these type of extremely crowded conditions. Don't let the label fool you, ALL of those ingredients are sourced out of countries where the rules & regs can be extremely lax. As of this year, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency will no longer even allow ON products into the country. What does that tell you about quality control?

All ON food is now made in Thailand, and shipped in bulk from Bangkok to the USA.
http://www.importgenius.com/shipments/ocean-nutrition-asia-co.html


Even their frozen brine shrimp now comes from Thailand.
IMHO you would be better off sticking to your Dainichi. (or something else made in the USA)

[TOMMYN3D]

In the AQUARIUM FISH INTERNATIONAL February 2011 magazine, it has a feature on food. Its called (Rethinking The Way You Feed Your Fish) by David A. Lass and Michael J. Massie.Im glad that i had the time to read this article and i want to share a few lines from this article.
(QUOTES): The ingredients of a fish food are criticle. Proteins and fats are the most important components of any good fish food, and it is important that the proteins and fats in a fish food be from an aquatic source, not land-based. Protein sources, such as soy concentrate, soybean meal or glutens, are poorly metabolized by fish as compared to aquatic protein sources, such as herring,spirulina or kelp.
Carbohydrates are not metabolized well by most fish and simply pass through them undigested. This puts a heavy load on the filtration systemon the aquarium.
Carbohydrate sources, such as wheat, rice, corn or other cereal grains, are also not well-metabolized by fish.
Anything more than 10percent carbs in a food will overwhelm the digestive system of the fish, causing incomplete digestion. This undigested carbs will just pass through the fish and add a large load to the filtration(mechanical and biological) of the tank.

These are just a few lines from this article, and alot more good info on food worth reading.If you get a chance to pick this magazine up, DO SO even just for the rest of the info in this article.The magazine price is $4.99 but i get a subscription for $24. for 12 issues. You can usually get it at BORDERS or BARNES AND NOBLE. Hey if you dont want to buy it go to the book store get a cup of tea or coffe sit down and read it for free. but its worth getting.
Tommy

[RD]

Carbohydrates are not metabolized well by most fish and simply pass through them undigested. This puts a heavy load on the filtration systemon the aquarium.
Carbohydrate sources, such as wheat, rice, corn or other cereal grains, are also not well-metabolized by fish.
Anything more than 10percent carbs in a food will overwhelm the digestive system of the fish, causing incomplete digestion. This undigested carbs will just pass through the fish and add a large load to the filtration(mechanical and biological) of the tank.


Wow, talk about some major generalization, which generally speaking is way out in left field.

Do either one of these gents cite any references for their comments about carbohydrates?

While I agree that generally speaking, most fish cannot assimilate large amounts of carbohydrates, to state that cereal grains as a whole are not well metabolized by fish, or that anything over 10% carbs will overwhelm the digestive system of the fish - is riduculous!

For a starter, most species of fish (pretty much every ornamental species that has ever been studied, including those classified as being carnivores) are able to produce enzymes such as amylase which are utilized by the fish for the assimilation of carbohydrate. Those carbohydrates are then utilized as an energy source by the fish. Herbivores are much more efficient in utilizing carbs/starch, and fish such as carp/koi can easily assimilate as much as 30-40% carbohydrates in their feed.

Most of you are probably feeding foods that contain 30-40% carbs, and don't even realize it. What do you think a food that has wheat listed as the main ingredient has for an inclusion rate of carbs?

http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/196810.html

"At the same time, we also raise new questions about the upper limit of feed levels of carbohydrate in this species. Depending on the source and quality of dietary carbohydrate, the aquaculture industry standard of 20% carbohydrate represents a "conservative" value. We documented outstanding growth performance of trout receiving 24% (mostly wheat flour) or even 30% (mostly purified starch) fed aquaculture rations or to satiety, respectively."


From the NRC's Nutrient Requirements of Fish, which is pretty much the bible for every commercial fish food manufacturer. Not the be all to end all, but a great reference source to work off of for tropical species.

"The nutritional value of carbohydrates varies among fish. Warm-water fish can use much greater amounts of dietary carbohydrate than cold-water and marine fish. No dietary requirement for carbohydrates has been demonstrated in fish; however, if carbohydrates are not provided in the diet, other compounds, such as protein and lipids, are catabolized for energy and for the synthesis of various biologically important compounds usually derived from carbohydrates. Thus, it is important to provide the appropriate concentration of carbohydrate in the diet of the fish species being cultured."

The problem with carbs is that unless they are used immediately as an energy source, they get stored as glycogen, and eventually converted to sugar, and then fat. This is exactly why one can find some VERY large obese specimens that have been fed generous amounts of lower quality high starch food. No different than a human that eats a large amount of white starch. (bread) You will still grow, and get big, but eventually become obese.

These types of foods do not make for a healthy fish, especially those species that are more on the carnivorous side of the equation. They are made with commercial fish farms in mind, where the fish are not expected to live long term. No farm wants their fish utilizing co$tly protein as an energy source, hence the reason for large amounts of carbs. Much less costly to waste some carbs, than to waste the much more costly protein such as fish meal etc. Many ornamental fish foods are designed using this same logic.

Having said that, there are numerous species of ornamental warm-water species of fish that have been shown to be able to properly assimilate & utilize levels of carbs in the 20-30% range, including carb sources such as wheat flour etc.


Please do not take the above comments as being Pro Grain content, or Pro Carbohydrate, as I am clearly not when they are used in excess. While I agree that a benchmark of 10-15% is a good general guideline for most tropical fish, that certainly does not equate to foods with greater than 10% "overwhelming the digestive system of the fish", unless we are talking about certain cold water species of fish, which I'm assuming we are not.


Neil

[RD]

Doh, it just came to me who Michael Massie is. Owner of Ultracolor food, which it appears is now part of "Young Again Pet Food". If you do a search on this site for Ultracolor you'll find a very long read on the subject of his no carb food.

In the absence of facts, experts abound. :coz:

[TOMMYN3D]

RD, I did the search on this forum about the Ultracolor thread and skimed through it. I do remember this post but after the 3rd or 4th page of you and others going back and forth i lost interest in this post and never finished reading it all. I did take some time today to read on some more of that thread and i will take all that information in and make my owne decision on what i belive is fact, opinion and BS.
Im sure by now you know as you stated Michael J. Massie is the founder of a pet food company for dogs, cats, birds, and fish.David A. Lass is a author. He is the author of Understanding and Keeping Anglefish. He is also a fish wholesaler to retaile stores in England. He has many articles in magazines and on the web including Aquarium Fish International and Fish channel.com.
These two gents are not just 2 Joe smoe's with no knowledge of food and fish keeping.Also yourself Neil is a respected person in the food,and pet hobby.
I myself am just a hobbist with no ties to any company in the pet food hobby.The article that I mentioned I still belive it to be very informative to any one that want to read a good article on fish food with much more that i did not mention in my post.Thank you for the reply and the infirmation on this forum that you have provided.
P.S. I do feed my African Cichlids NLS along with other food brand food.
Tommy

[CrabbyMatty]

I've been to Tommy's house and am the proud owner of some his fish. All I can say from my first-hand experience is, he knows what he is doing. Keep up the good work Tommy. :beerchug:

[TOMMYN3D]

Thank you very much Matt for the kind words. Comming from you that means alot :beerchug: :ty:

[RD]

These two gents are not just 2 Joe smoe's with no knowledge of food and fish keeping.

While that may all be true, that doesn't equate to either of them being "experts" on the subject of fish nutrition, or for that matter knowing any more than the basic fundamentals. If you take the time to read the other discussion (and yes I realize it's a long, and perhaps boring read) Mike Massie didn't even seem to grasp the fact that carbs/starch are used by many fish food manufacturers as a low cost source of energy. Quite frankly that shocked me, it's basic stuff & anyone who makes fish food should clearly understand that basic fact of formulating fish feed.

While I don't disagree with his concept (low carbs) I totally disagree in the manner in which he presented his so called facts. Mike seems to be great at pulling facts & stats out of his arse, but never once could he back any of them up. The statement below that you posted from their article is yet another classic example of this. Carbohydrate sources, such as wheat, rice, corn or other cereal grains, are also not well-metabolized by fish.
Anything more than 10percent carbs in a food will overwhelm the digestive system of the fish, causing incomplete digestion.

For a starter, as much as Mike would like to clump all terrestrial based grains under the same category (or all genus/species of fish for that matter), the fact is that you cannot. Some terrestrial grains are highly digestible to many fish, once those grains have been processed. Some carry antinutritional factors (even when cooked) such as peas, which he happens to use in several of his formulas. You can't clump corn middlings in with an ingredient such as wheat flour, anymore than you can clump soybean meal in with potato starch. Some of these raw ingredients are highly digestible to fish, and have been used & studied for decades by the aquaculture industry. To make a blanket statement such as: "Anything more than 10percent carbs in a food will overwhelm the digestive system of the fish, causing incomplete digestion." is ludicrous, and is simply untrue, even when feeding fish classified as strict carnivores and/or piscivores.

I'm all for marketing through education, it's been my mantra since day 1, but I think that a clear distinction should be made by people such as Mike Massie when sharing their opinions with the general public, and presenting them as facts.


BTW - my previous comment was in no way directed at Tommy, personally, so no need for anyone to come in and defend him. :beerchug:

[CrabbyMatty]

[QUOTE=RD;52982BTW - my previous comment was in no way directed at Tommy, personally, so no need for anyone to come in and defend him. :beerchug:[/QUOTE]

Fair enough RD. You're a good person and hobbyist from having followed your postings. Tommy is my good friend and just wanted to let him know I have his back. :becky:

Please keep up the good postings. :beerchug:

Matt

[RD]

No worries, I understand. I'm sure that Tommy had very good intentions with posting some of the info from that article, but it just goes to show how easily those who are not in the know can be bamboozled by this type of misinformation. I believe in the past thread that Mike & I crossed swords he also claimed that with krill an inclusion rate of over 10% caused diarrhea in fish, which of course he could never substantiate with anything beyond his personal opinion, because it simply is not true.

While I am associated with NLS, I would never BS anyone that was seeking lower cost alternatives, especially in these economic times. Many times over the years I have advised those looking for low cost feeds to look into buying directly from a feed mill. They may not be the greatest foods out there, but some of the better ones will still get the job done, even those with over 10% carb content. :)

I personally think that those that make things up to suit their own personal agenda do a great disservice to the hobby, which is why I came down so hard on Mike in the last discussion that we had.

[TOMMYN3D]

RD, I have no hard feeling towards you. I'm glad and welcome you and anyone or company rep., ect. that would take the time to come here and clear up any and all concerns and questions that the hobbiest here may have.

Now someone anyone please post something, anything even a smiley face so that i dont have the last word.:becky:

[joe_jaskot]

Now someone anyone please post something, anything even a smiley face so that i dont have the last word.:becky:

Food for thought.