Vinman's Malawi Discussion...

[vinman]

I would like to see that Admin split the tread in 2 and start a new thread about evolution of Malawi, this way Nick will have his thread back

Larry J. dives in the lake every year He is very informative. One bad thing though I never see him ever say he was wrong. The fact that Larry mentioned the mother flock species, One would think that the mixed dorsal zebra population and the 2 population north and south of it would still incorporate Travel over the vast stretch of sand. The DNA don't lie. The fact that If Larry was right then The DNA would be similar in All three populations. . The fact that both population north and south have different DNA and the Population in the middle has a combination both DNA only proves fish travel in the lake and found A safe haven at Makanjila.

Why spider just think not all mbuna are brightly colored as fry. Think even if it has to cross across the sand. You do know that most Fry are grayish to brownish and can change hughes and patterns. Like I stated before there is a season that they don't collect fish because of the water has poor visibility. I can see fry traveling during this time . I'm not saying this happens so much that it is common but It happens. Take AMBUSHPREDATOR theory. Now instead of a bird apply it to a big fish that is a predator. Do you think that a fish caring a mouth load of fully developed fry gets eaten she wont spit in the open water . You do know that fish don't just gulp another fish into is gut they keep it in there mouth for a bit crushing it in the mouth and throat as the fish is swimming around fry are being distributed. Stuart Grant found a small population of peacocks . He had collected them . He did go back sometime latter just to find that the peacock was gone, the numbers were too small to sub stain the population and a deeper water species of peacock moved into their territory and interbred with the first race to make a new morph of peacock. This was documented by Grant himself

[why_spyder]

First off, I too appreciate this getting split off - should make for an interesting read to anyone - and will avoid destroying Nick a's great post.

The fact that both population north and south have different DNA and the Population in the middle has a combination both DNA only proves fish travel in the lake and found A safe haven at Makanjila.

I cannot comment much on this part of your post as my knowledge of the situation/source of information is very limited. I haven't read/heard what you have unfortunately.

Why spider just think not all mbuna are brightly colored as fry. Think even if it has to cross across the sand. You do know that most Fry are grayish to brownish and can change hughes and patterns. Like I stated before there is a season that they don't collect fish because of the water has poor visibility. I can see fry traveling during this time . I'm not saying this happens so much that it is common but It happens. Take AMBUSHPREDATOR theory. Now instead of a bird apply it to a big fish that is a predator. Do you think that a fish caring a mouth load of fully developed fry gets eaten she wont spit in the open water . You do know that fish don't just gulp another fish into is gut they keep it in there mouth for a bit crushing it in the mouth and throat as the fish is swimming around fry are being distributed. Stuart Grant found a small population of peacocks . He had collected them . He did go back sometime latter just to find that the peacock was gone, the numbers were too small to sub stain the population and a deeper water species of peacock moved into their territory and interbred with the first race to make a new morph of peacock. This was documented by Grant himself

Okay, I do know quite a bit about fry believe it or not. I understand their ability to change color, hide, find small amounts of food in substrate, etc.

I also understand how a fish eats another fish - and that the prey will sit in the mouth for quite sometime especially if the prey fish is large.

What I don't quite understand is how you think (please correct my assumptions if they are off) that a fry will survive crossing a large spance of sand, establish in a area, and start a new species through hybridization? I understand that fry can be resilient but it would take a lot of food and energy to cross a spance of sand that was, say, 1 km wide.

And with the new species through hybridization - I think that the "new male on the block" would have to appeal to several females in that area. Also, that new male would also have to accept (with much hesitance I'm sure, lol) those females as partners. After the spawns - the fry would have to make it to adulthood and recognize (and be recognized) the appropriate mates. And this process would have to continue until a uniform new species is formed. That's a lot of generations of confused offspring looking for mates - especially if the original "hybridizers" were very different in appearance.

For me - it is more easily acceptable that new species are formed through females prefering a mutation (not sure this is the best word to convey my thought but I'm using it) or slight variance in color pattern. In other words, a male rises to dominance and displays a slightly different hue of a color, has an extra bar (or lack thereof for that matter), or some other physical difference that females find more appealing. Through this male a new generation of offspring is formed. This generation is the basis for a new variant/species. The females that prefer these males continue to breed with them and slowly, over many many years, a new variant/species is formed with a steady supply of consistant physical qualities. The females that don't prefer it stick to breeding with their "original" original species - and they continue it. It is also possible that there is a rivalry between the two variant/species and one is forced a distance away or one species slowly migrates up or down the coast wherever they can find a niche.

That, roughly, is my theory behind the many variants of Cynotilapia (afra, mbamba, lion, etc.).

Maybe the fry theory happens - I don't know - I haven't made it to Malawi. And I certainly haven't done as much on location research as Larry, Ad Konings, and all the other regular visitors.

As far as Stuart Grant's observations - I haven't read/seen that information either.

[vinman]

It would have to happen in a area quite often to make a new Ssp. But a hybird is another story . Now to what the hybird bred to is the question. It should blend into one of the Ssp that made the hybrid

I will post some pics so you can read the artical. You should join the ACA You will learn so much and get correct info instead of peoples oppions.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

Spyder; In all honesty you can tell me that there is never more than one mbuna or peacock or any other like kind species ever found within within the same range, and saying that any fry or fish that would try to move from his rocky range would have to swim 1.5 miles to survive and populate another area ? Boy that's setting the bar high ! In addition small fry that might be hovering next to a floating log that moves over another area and comes to rest 1.5 miles away thus depositing fry in a different location is an impossibility as are all other natural scenario's like the bird theory and the fish theory . In fact in the Jewel of the rift video it actually shows an eagle pull a mouth brooding fish from the water and fly away with it to another shoreline location. The fact that nobody from the lake has actually watched one of these one in a million crossings is no surprize and doesn't change anything. Now I respect that you have your own theories on this , But if you step back and look at all the rules that make your theory plausible it's like banging your head against the wall . 1- There is (never) a like kind species ever found less than 1.5 miles's away not barriored by sand. 2- No fry or fish has ever nor will ever cross that distance . 3- Any natural possibility previosly mentioned or any other is impossible . Cards are stacked knock-em down. Buy the way I truly love the discussion and if we ever meet we can drink over it.

[vinman]

I hope this is good enuff I'm not skilled with the camara like YAP

http://i44.tinypic.com/29mrvc5.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/4ztj02.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2hfkqrr.jpg

[vinman]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2whlf6c.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/33ndoxx.jpg

[vinman]

AMBUSHPREDATOR I totaly agree. If the large expances of sand are not conducive to life then what about all those sand nest builders. They live in the snady areas and breed in it. The fish that feed in the open water or hunt vast expances of sand cant get every fish that ventures off the rocks. I'm glad that you think out of the box . to know nature is to have a better understanting of what goes on in the lake.

Why spider call me I can explain to you better I'm very limitted when it comes to writing 718 792 2593

[why_spyder]

Okay, these two responses will try to cover what you said.

Going back to this post:
This is right out of the ACA, BB,248, Oct/2008 at Makanjila Point the zebra population consists of males with variable color in the dorsal fin. Some males are red, yellow, or white . Smith 2003. Useing DNA analysis they found out that population consists of natural hybirds betwween a BB Zebra found north of Makanjila and the red top morph of M Pysonotos from Chimwalani Reef. Also a wild hybird between L. fulleborni X P.Purpuratus the pic is from Ad Konings. There have been many documented cases of natural hybrids. That is how new cichilds or a morph are formed in the lake. Many come from Hybrids , Not all but many.

After reading the article myself, I only see two cases of natural "hybrids" - the BB zebras at Makanjila Point and the single male found singly. I don't see the many cases that you were referring to (maybe they are the Stuart Grant observations you talked about?).

And going off of Larry's post - the male was an outcast and not an established colony of these. So it is a natural hybrid - but one small mistake that made it to adulthood.

As for the DNA test, if I understand Larry correctly, I believe the Makanjila Point is the place of the "Mother" group - and the different DNA results for north and south of that point are the results of species leaving Makanjila some time in the past -forming different groups. The way I percieve you taking the DNA results as the opposite - the north/south groups merging at Makanjila Point and hybridizing.

Here is what Larry said (makes it easier for me to reference to):

I think those Cobwe's are awesome!

OK guys,this is getting a bit off track,so let me help you all out.
I'll try to make it short.


Maybe all the strain's are not as pure as we like to believe. You would think on the fringes of two population's sub dom males would be courting any female they could find , and as we know the females wouldn't stop them.

There are NO fringe area's between populations,Mbuna are tied to the rocks and will not travel out onto open sand for long distances.


females are more likely only seek out the best & brightest males of their kind to spawn with.

Yes this is true.Females are attracted to the brilliant males,not the dull imature ones.Females swim by colored sub-dominant males to spawn with the more brightly colored males. (Personal observation)
Sub-dominant males are chased away from their spawning sites,just like in your aquarium.


Hybrids due get produced in the wild - no doubt it happens.

This is correct.(more below)


It's been seen as you go down a coastline say from red to orange to blue , The fact that we can barely at times distinguish what the heck some fish are ourselves is proof. Look at the books.

If you are referring to Ad Konings pics of species color varieties,mapped out by different colors along the coastline to show which is found where,,,then look again.In most cases the area's are seperated with a river or some type of natural barrier (which you cannot see in a book).Although these area's of color look to YOU as they should be touching or overlapping they actually are seperated by more distance than one can concieve by reading a book.


Look at the books. They show only the fish that they can distinguish. There are no books covering all the muted brown fish in the lakes if there where or anyone actually wanted them it would be as big as the encyclopedia brittannica.

Lake Malawi is virtually covered by Ad Konings 3rd and 4th edition,,,,those brown fish you mention are sub adults of fish already described.
The fish count is approximately 850 species and there could be some that are still being missed but IMO I would think that it would not go over 900.
The fish that would be included in this '50 category' would be fish we have already observed and photgraphed but not scientifically described.eg.some fish that have been previously thought the same,would be divided into new species or sub species. (Copadichromis attripinnis,Cynotilapia sp "dwarf ntekete")


Wrong, there are more hybrids in the lake than you think.

Wrong.
Personal observation with hundreds of underwater hours in Lake Malawi,produced one hybred fish at one location.(Zimbawe Rocks)
I got the only picture of it ,Ad observed this fish as well,but could not get a picture of it.
So as the discussion went that day,,,,Ad has observed only a few others in his life time of diving there.(pers comm)
This fish was a cross between a vermivoris and an elongatus (we believe,Ad and I) and the fish was not residing anywhere near either populations of either species,,,an outcast!
Upon following up on this fish over several trips to the same area each year after,,,,its not there anymore,,,nor was any other crossbred fish found.


Some males are red, yellow, or white . Smith 2003. Useing DNA analysis they found out that population consists of natural hybirds betwween a BB Zebra found north of Makanjila and the red top morph of M Pysonotos from Chimwalani Reef.

The two fish you mention are two distinct species that cannot migrate to each other to interbreed.
Could they have been from the SAME species flock,YES and then evolution took over,not cross breeding.
Along the Coast line in which you mention,yes there are Red males,these males are Metriclima esterae.
There are also "Marmalade" males as well.(evolution of BB Zebra)

Let me clarify something that may be clouding your judgement/statements (or while I think of it)
You assume that cross breeding in this lake is creating new species,which it is not.
Here's the short version.
The allowpatric speciation theory (an accepted theory); "takes place after a small number of individuals have been seperated from the "mother" population and a new one is founded".....this is due to the fluctuating water levels over long periods of time.
Small groups of fish were sperated off the "mother" group when they inhabited the same coast line and the water levels increased.These small populations were seperated by tracks of unsuitable habitat which formed a barrier to the dispersal of certain species.
Its important to realize that while evolution can occur without speciation,speciation cannot occur without evolution.
Now if you do not believe this then why are there different colored Zebra species along the same coast.These fish are not travelling 30 miles to crossbreed!
Makanjila Point is a tremendous barrier between Chimwalani Reef (M.Prysonotus resides) and area's north of the same point!
This area is completely sand for many miles!
Your DNA explanation as described in "BB"does not conclude that the fish are hybreds,it shows to me that they came from the same "mother" group and have evolved into seperate species.



We all have good intention's and pride in our fish so let's let it be . Let's stay out of the gutter.

The absolute best quote of the day!

Cheers,Larry

[why_spyder]

Okay, to answer the recent posts...

I will post some pics so you can read the artical. You should join the ACA You will learn so much and get correct info instead of peoples oppions.

Thanks for posting article photos definitely helped to be able to read what you did for discussion purposes.

As far as joining the ACA, I probably won't (at least not now) for personal reasons. I probably would learn new stuff - but the info I can get through the ACA I can get through the people that share that information directly. So really - the opinions that I get are from the same people that share the information on the ACA.

AMBUSHPREDATOR, for whatever reason (probably from work) I am not quite understanding what you stated, but I will try.

Spyder; In all honesty you can tell me that there is never more than one mbuna or peacock or any other like kind species ever found within within the same range, and saying that any fry or fish that would try to move from his rocky range would have to swim 1.5 miles to survive and populate another area ? Boy that's setting the bar high !

My assumption is that there is a number of mbuna species and probably peacock species at any one location. They live together in a structured community but I don't believe this increases the odds of hybridization at all. The only way I think that the odds would be increased would be if similar looking species lived close to one another and the ability of the females to determine the appropriate partner was disrupted (dirty water, light issues, etc.) In many mbuna species the females are open water feeders so they must be able to determine their appropriate mate from a distance - so muddy water would probably be the the most obvious interference.

Now I respect that you have your own theories on this , But if you step back and look at all the rules that make your theory plausible it's like banging your head against the wall . 1- There is (never) a like kind species ever found less than 1.5 miles's away not barriored by sand. 2- No fry or fish has ever nor will ever cross that distance . 3- Any natural possibility previosly mentioned or any other is impossible.

And this is why I feel that the thought that fry crossing (dropped from mouth, chased by predator, swept away by current, etc.) is bogus. A fry would never cross such distances - which is true. The way I read this it sounds like I proved the point I was trying to make earlier.


What I don't quite understand is how you think (please correct my assumptions if they are off) that a fry will survive crossing a large spance of sand, establish in a area, and start a new species through hybridization? I understand that fry can be resilient but it would take a lot of food and energy to cross a spance of sand that was, say, 1 km wide.

If the large expances of sand are not conducive to life then what about all those sand nest builders. They live in the snady areas and breed in it. The fish that feed in the open water or hunt vast expances of sand cant get every fish that ventures off the rocks.

As for the sand-dwelling species - wouldn't they be similar to mbuna in the fact that they may not cross open water, rocky outcrops, river inlets to get to another location? Again, I haven't been to the lake - but I'm sure not all sandy areas are connected. The sand-dwelling species are probably less limited to travel - but there is still boundaries of sorts.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

Spyder my point is that you cannot ever say as a fact that these thing's can't happen. I believe they do and most don't have to cross a huge expanse of sand. They're are alot in close proximity. It's more likely crosses would happen from a wandering female getting courted by a male from a different variety just from the point of stealth. With no male of her own group around she would mate with the males from another group. Since she doesn't stand out in a crowd this is much more likely. And I feel that fry make it and do. No it's not common because it's one in a million to make it but these little lost souls, probably billion's have been forced to try and one in a million has come up hundreds or thousands of times over the years, it's simple math. We are not talking about totaly overiding colonies we are talking about small bit's of DNA randomly entered into the colonies gene pools causing small alteration's to thier color pattern. If you were correct color's and all other traites would be locked down after millions of years. But they aren't because there are almost alway's small variations in a group. If you look at your view nothing ever happen's by accident or chance and not taking these thing's into account causes your view to be limited and non scientific. It's like doing an experiment without including variables it's flawed.

[why_spyder]

It's more likely crosses would happen from a wandering female getting courted by a male from a different variety just from the point of stealth. With no male of her own group around she would mate with the males from another group. Since she doesn't stand out in a crowd this is much more likely. And I feel that fry make it and do.

So you are saying the females are being forced into breeding via surprise tactics of the male? That is what is sounds like - and I really don't buy that.

...We are not talking about totaly overiding colonies we are talking about small bit's of DNA randomly entered into the colonies gene pools causing small alteration's to thier color pattern. If you were correct color's and all other traites would be locked down after millions of years. But they aren't because there are almost alway's small variations in a group. If you look at your view nothing ever happen's by accident or chance and not taking these thing's into account causes your view to be limited and non scientific. It's like doing an experiment without including variables it's flawed.

How is the "random DNA tidbits" any different than this?


For me - it is more easily acceptable that new species are formed through females prefering a mutation (not sure this is the best word to convey my thought but I'm using it) or slight variance in color pattern.

Mutations and/or color variations are through expressed genes, correct?

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

Hey Vinny! Thanks for the kudos but you did a good job with the pics of the article! Great idea! I just went and reread mine from my BB. This is a great thread guys! Keep it going!
I like Hybrids: My first wife was Italian/Irish, my second was Polish/irish, and Fishwife is Swedish/german/irish! :neener:

[fischfan13]

Hypothetically, wouldn't you be able to say that all Pseudotropheus might have come from one...maybe thousands of years ago?
The same with Aulonocara?


It would have to happen in a area quite often to make a new Ssp. But a hybird is another story . Now to what the hybird bred to is the question. It should blend into one of the Ssp that made the hybrid

I will post some pics so you can read the artical. You should join the ACA You will learn so much and get correct info instead of peoples oppions.

[vinman]

Why spider I am very limitted as I cant spell even with spell check I cant convey my thoughts in detail. The scenario Me and ambush belive it or not mostliky happens Fry are freeswimming at 16 day since the spawing taook place . Mother fish dont relase fry untill 20 to 25 day of age that gives a open window for fully developed fry in the mothers mouth that can live without the mothers supervision. It is total possibile for a fry to get lost in the biocover blend with the backround and make it to a safe haven. There are fish that are release fry in the open sand areas. also there are many places in ddep water whee fry can go unnoticed. Remember in the sand there is pleanty of food for young fry to live off of. it is not a sterile inviorment. I can post a pic of a wild hybrid from tumbi west island it is in the cichlid yearbook volume 6

http://i44.tinypic.com/125kqi1.jpg

Now I showed 3 cases including a whole hybrid colony at Makanjila DNA dont lie. The fact if Larry was right the DNA would have shown the fish on either side of Makanjila all shared some of the DNA. The fact they are different and only show both DNA at Makanjila is the smoking gun to prove fish will travle great distances. I have caught many a gravid female in my tanks over the last 28 years that had full term young inside the mouth. Some spit right as they were in the net some refussed to released young even out of the water. So it is possibile for a fish to be caught buy another fish and spit out her fry before she is engulfed. The fact that you dont breed and only have 3.5 years in the hobby. You realy dont have a full grasp of the fish. The fact you will relay on what other people read instead of paying 20 bucks a year to get knowledge first hand as I do will set you back instead of you knowing the truth about the fish. I'm not putting you down just lets be honest I have read a lot more about the fish than you . I also work with wild fish and do conversation work in my local park reinterducing native herps I have a better grasp about wildlife as a whole. Yes I speak to scientist about herp and fish evolution. If you know anything about nature you would know that what ever is the norm is not always the case. Just like they are finding shark in OK in the freash water river system 600 miles from salt water. This was unknow to science 50 years ago.

[vinman]

Thanx YAP you are still the master.

Bill yes you are right in fact I think as DNA test become more technical they are finding very wierd stuff. It was not untill recent DNA test they found out the closest Plant member to Marijuana is starwberrys. Yes DNA has linked them as close relitives. The same for lotus flower it closest relitive is the Yuh tree. It is so foolish to belive that these fish dont travle. How would mbuna that are common like L fulleborni end up on a isloated Island or reef . They are top water mbuna occurring in the first 7 meters of water now L. trewavasae has been found 150 meters of water. So how would this fish be found all over the place if it did not travle

[why_spyder]

Why spider I am very limitted as I cant spell even with spell check I cant convey my thoughts in detail. The scenario Me and ambush belive it or not mostliky happens Fry are freeswimming at 16 day since the spawing taook place . Mother fish dont relase fry untill 20 to 25 day of age that gives a open window for fully developed fry in the mothers mouth that can live without the mothers supervision. It is total possibile for a fry to get lost in the biocover blend with the backround and make it to a safe haven. There are fish that are release fry in the open sand areas. also there are many places in ddep water whee fry can go unnoticed. Remember in the sand there is pleanty of food for young fry to live off of. it is not a sterile inviorment.

Okay, I think we can get passed the development of a fry. The way you continually phrase things to me reminds me of my wife talking to a child at the daycare. If you think I haven't learned this stuff already - let me clarify - I have. A bit rude, I know, but I get sick of being talked down to (via oversimplified descriptions).

I have caught many a gravid female in my tanks over the last 28 years that had full term young inside the mouth. Some spit right as they were in the net some refussed to released young even out of the water. So it is possibile for a fish to be caught buy another fish and spit out her fry before she is engulfed..

I have stripped many females already - I know what they can be like. But honestly, the odds of all these circumstances happening successfully are probably infinite (predatory fish grabs gravid female, female spits, fry escape, fry live on). Odds are worse if a bird takes the fish.... (fry have farther to go to get to safety)

The fact that you dont breed and only have 3.5 years in the hobby. You realy dont have a full grasp of the fish.

Is this a fact, really? I said I don't breed fish now (since I moved) - never said I never bred fish. By the way - what is a "full grasp" on fish? Knowing their names, anatomy, origin, history? You don't know me, you only think you do. So please spare me the "I got years on you" bit - it really gets old and means absolutely nothing to me.

The fact you will relay on what other people read instead of paying 20 bucks a year to get knowledge first hand as I do will set you back instead of you knowing the truth about the fish. I'm not putting you down just lets be honest I have read a lot more about the fish than you.

Maybe you should re-read what I posted about where I get my information from.

I also work with wild fish and do conversation work in my local park reinterducing native herps I have a better grasp about wildlife as a whole. Yes I speak to scientist about herp and fish evolution. If you know anything about nature you would know that what ever is the norm is not always the case. Just like they are finding shark in OK in the freash water river system 600 miles from salt water. This was unknow to science 50 years ago.

Not sure why this was necessary...

[Larry Johnson]

As for the sand-dwelling species - wouldn't they be similar to mbuna in the fact that they may not cross open water, rocky outcrops, river inlets to get to another location? Again, I haven't been to the lake - but I'm sure not all sandy areas are connected. The sand-dwelling species are probably less limited to travel - but there is still boundaries of sorts.
YES! You are quite right.
Open water Cichlids are not like Mbuna,they WILL cross over boulders and that's why a lot of those type fish are found Lake wide.As an example Copadichromis chrysonotus looks the same through out the Lake,it is said to have a Lake Wide distribution,this is due to its personal habits,,,in that it does not use a cave,rocks or sand to spawn on,,,it spawns in 'open water'.
Now sand dwellers and there's a LOT,,,are more geographicly located.Although you may find them in or near rocks they will not just enter open water to go for a swim,,,,in most cases. It's not a natural thing for them to do.They do cross rocky outcrops and boulder area's,but these area's are not large enough to cause a barrier.At some point though the rocks stretch to far or a river spilling into the Lake stops them,but their area's in some cases are larger than Mbuna.If you look at the maps in Ad's book you can see where that water is deep and where it is shallow.Those shallow area's are where the sand dwellers are.The area north and south of Kande Island is awesome for these fish as well as Ngara area north of Chilumba.(I could go on about these locations)
Rock, sand and deep water barriers mean more to some fish than others.
Think of it this way,if you want to go Bass fishing,,,do you fish near rocky shores,sunken logs or 10 miles off shore over deep water! Fish stay in there own preffered habitat.

As far as Vinman saying I have never admitted being wrong,I see what I see,that is what is related here and you just cannot get that from a book,I'm not guessing.Ad and I along with others on each one of our trips spend hours talking about such things,,,and I'm in agreement with him,,,although I have asked him some doggie questions and he never wants to talk about Maylandia vs Metriclima,,,LOL!:oh:
I just haven't got to the book stage as yet.
What did you think about Konings 3rd and 4th edition,,,,pretty darn boring stuff for reading material,,,to a newbie,but as you learn and sort out for yourself things like locations and that third name being usually a location (eg.Ps.Elongatus 'chewere') things become clearer.
Let me tell you,after you have been to this lake just once,the whole book takes on a new meaning.
As far as Hybrids,I did not say this never happens,but I can say this is rare.
As I follow Ad's article on Hybrids he is answering the question of "What is a Hybrid" he not saying there are thousands of them found everywhere in the Lake.
I think the quote was that after 2000+ hours of diving he found only one hybrid fish.
I related another story involving Ad where we both observed the same fish,,,,a hybrid,,while I added my observations ,,,that the fish had seperated itself (or was chased away) from both species flocks of which it was derived from.
IMO this fish would probably never breed.(I can expand on this)
Then on subsiquent dives at this same location never observed it again.
So I am implying that although there was a hybrid there it was in no geographical postion to breed with another fish close to what it was derived from,,,and probably did not.
Speculation
Now on the flip side of this,if a fish was a hybrid and appeared much the same as either one of the parents it could possibly breed back into the gene pool and throw a varience into that gene pool.
These two species of fish would have been found at the same location,,,they did not cross great distances to get together to produce hybrid offspring.(as barriers are explained)
Now,if the water rises,as we know it did in the Lake,this might seperate a group of fish,each group would have more or less the same hybrid gene to cause enough change in appearance at each isolated location to develop in a different direction.(similar to line breeding only over a much longer period)
Over a long period of time,one or even both populations could have capitalized on that gene and thus produced a new or slightly different looking fish. (Evolution)

If you own the 4th edition my earlier reference to Evolution and Speciation was quoted from Lake Malawi Fish in their Natural Habitat 4th edition,pg 21,so best you read that first,I hope it helps make all this clearer.
I think after reading the comments maybe it was not so clear as to what I said.

As far as what Ad was saying about the introduced Afra's at Thumbi Island West crossing with the BB Zebra's there.I cannot disagree with that.
I think in another 100 years the two fish might well look the same and two species may well become one.They are stuck there,at this Island with deep water all around and no where to go.
The introduction happened 25 years ago and they are still at this one location.

I have a suggestion,as we are going all over the place.Lets post a paragraph or article and work with one thought/idea/article at a time,,,this is going to far left and right and nothing is getting solved really (will it ever),what do you think?

Personaly I would rather try to help members who do not have as much experience as I have (nurturing) and have some fun while doing it,after all this is our favorite subject or we would not be here!

Cheers,Larry

[vinman]

So Larry Did you read what Ad wrote abot the zebras at Makanjila you are total wrong with the flock theroy. The DNA test would have shown simlar DNA in all three populations. the fact that they found both DNA at Makanjila is proff that the fish came from 2 distinct populations. I posted the artical in this thread. Now what about rafting . Have you ever looked in a bunch of floatuing Vegitation to see what is living in it. What about thae season where the water has poor visibility . Now no one is saying this happen every day . It is rare but it happens. If a fry from a open water Ssp can travle on open sand so can a pale colored mbuna fry.

Speculation My tush. you damm know that natural conditions change all the time including hurricains which rip up vegitation and provide cover for small fish

[fischfan13]

Speculation My tush. you damm know that...


Vin, I am going to ask you to refrain from this behavior.
No one here is getting their panties in a bunch except for you.
Chill.

[RD]

G'day Larry, Brian, Vinman etc .......

I think the quote was that after 2000+ hours of diving he found only one hybrid fish.

Larry, when you say "found", are you referring to making a visual ID on the fish? If so, then I believe that your comment about "if a fish was a hybrid and appeared much the same as either one of the parents it could possibly breed back into the gene pool and throw a varience into that gene pool" would come into play.

While I certainly don't believe that the fish in Malawi hybridize in mass numbers, I think that it's fair to say that hybridization does occur, and that for the most part those hybrid genes simply don't survive long term in the vast majority of populations.

I think that we can all agree on that. (or not?) lol

[vinman]

Vin, I am going to ask you to refrain from this behavior.
No one here is getting their panties in a bunch except for you.
Chill.

Not fighting or being mean . We are discussing a good topic. Speculation My tush. is not in a mean manner but in a joking manner it all depends how you say it. On the board I can see how someone can misunderstood the tone . Sorry that is not where I'm comming from. In other words you know that these can happen and probly due happen.

[vinman]

G'day Larry, Brian, Vinman etc .......



Larry, when you say "found", are you referring to making a visual ID on the fish? If so, then I believe that your comment about "if a fish was a hybrid and appeared much the same as either one of the parents it could possibly breed back into the gene pool and throw a varience into that gene pool" would come into play.

While I certainly don't believe that the fish in Malawi hybridize in mass numbers, I think that it's fair to say that hybridization does occur, and that for the most part those hybrid genes simply don't survive long term in the vast majority of populations.

I think that we can all agree on that. (or not?) lol

Well said and to the point . Damm you could have saved me all this posting. That sums up what I was trying to say. Thanx

[vinman]

RD. what is your oppion on the expantion of species through displaced fish.

[RD]

LOL, well I believe that Larry was saying the same thing, he simply went into more detail & was sharing his personal experiences at the lake.

[RD]

RD. what is your oppion on the expantion of species through displaced fish.



......and that for the most part those hybrid genes simply don't survive long term in the vast majority of populations.

That's my opinion.

[vinman]

It is total obvious that if displacement of fish and hybridizing and environmental changes were common there would not be and locality fish they would be changing all the time. There would not be any Ssp but for only a few. The DNA don't lie and it will be telling more stories than one would believe. But you have to go with what the current data tells you as impossible as it my seem

[vinman]

That's my opinion.

Not talking about hybrids. I total agree that a hybrid will melt into the population.

I'm talking about fish populating a new area either through any of the variables. Rafting, fish being chased, or any of the expamples I mentioned earlier

[Larry Johnson]

Now what about rafting . Have you ever looked in a bunch of floatuing Vegitation to see what is living in it.
Yes,open water predator fish,,,which feed on other fish.
No Mbuna fry,there may have been some Copadichromis in there,hard to say for sure and other open water fish (Lake Sardine),but the predator fish would end up the winners.(Rhamphochromis sp.)
High winds are common in some seasons,but hurricanes are rare.Actually I have not heard of a hurricane ever coming thru there,but they do have water spouts which are like small tornados.These could rip out a section of 'weeds' and they can be found floating in some area's of the lake.These rafts are rarely observed,I have only seen one.
Vinman I stated 'Speculation' as I have not done research/or observed this and I am not seeking to be the provider of myth,that is why I use 'speculation'!
This indicates a take it or leave it paragraph.
know that natural conditions change all the time including hurricains which rip up vegitation and provide cover for small fish
Some small fish are in the Valisneria beds which get torn up by breeding males such as D.Kwingi,these are not the beds of which are floating.
The beds to which you are referring (I seen the pic you may be refferring to) are reed beds and this is not the location of where Mbuna are found,Mbuna are found in and around rocks where there are no weed beds.
Tilapia Rendalii are found around such Reeds,,,and a few species of Protomelas.
Larry, when you say "found", are you referring to making a visual ID on the fish?
Hi RD!
Yes,I have a picture of that fish,,,I cannot remember for sure,but I believe I gave the pic file to Ad as well.
then I believe that your comment about "if a fish was a hybrid and appeared much the same as either one of the parents it could possibly breed back into the gene pool and throw a varience into that gene pool" would come into play.
That was speculation on what might occur or has ocurred.(Evolution)
OK,if you were looking for an explanation on this Hybrid I found in 2005 at Zimbawe Rocks.
The fish was SO ugly,,,how ugly was it?
Yes,it must have been chased away,,,it was probably 100 meteres from any other grazing Mbuna,,,,slipping in an out of a hole between several rocks,,,was acting very strange,,,behaviour unlike either of the two parents.
It was not close in appearance to either parent (although Ad speculated on what the two parents were) and did not act like either parent,,,so there is no way it would have ever fitted in,,,,I guess you just would have had to be there to appreciate this.
I did not see it this year (2008) or last year(2007),or the year before(2006)
so I think its gone now.
While I certainly don't believe that the fish in Malawi hybridize in mass numbers, I think that it's fair to say that hybridization does occur, and that for the most part those hybrid genes simply don't survive long term in the vast majority of populations.
Yes,I could go along with that statement,,,kinda Politically correctiveness,there I think,,LOL

OK that's it for tonight!

Cheers,Larry

[bovsbaitboxes]

In lakes up here ducks and other birds clean their feathers in the shallows and eggs get caught in them then they fly to another lake and eggs fall off. thats how lakes get seeded .I have fished lakes and seen no fish at all and then years later go back and there is fish (talking woodland lake not ones that would be stocked) . also we get tropical fish here in NJ. wind and tide drive the fish this way as big as the lakes are I am sure there has to be some kind of wind driven current. good luck with the debate John

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

To clarify my fry , small female entering a colony theory. The female migrate's or somehow end's up mingling with a nearby colony. She grow's up as part of that colony. She will breed with dom males from that new colony when she matures. She is not seen as a different species by the colony because she look's like the other females. Now the colony as a whole has new DNA mixed with their's. The new colony is not taken over by this new fish but now has a slight changes . This is why there are slight differences between members of colonies. Eventually depending on how long it's been since the last mingling, the colony will all look the same or have minor variations. So the longer since the last new dna infusion the more alike and the less variable the colony will be. You can also say a colony with multiple small diferences within itself has been infused with new dna more recently and more often than a colony that has identical traits. So as far as I'm concerned they are all mixed somewhere in their evolution , its more a question of how often.

[why_spyder]

I have a suggestion,as we are going all over the place.Lets post a paragraph or article and work with one thought/idea/article at a time,,,this is going to far left and right and nothing is getting solved really (will it ever),what do you think?

Personaly I would rather try to help members who do not have as much experience as I have (nurturing) and have some fun while doing it,after all this is our favorite subject or we would not be here!

I definitely like this idea - jumping around alot gets hard to keep up with.

Speculation My tush. you damm know that natural conditions change all the time including hurricains which rip up vegitation and provide cover for small fish

I have never heard of an inland Hurricane, but I have seen the water spouts that do occur. In my book, there is a big difference in destructive force.

As far as that surviving fry that survives all these obstacles - it is starting to sound more like a Disney movie. Some fry are strong, some will die if you look at them wrong. Again the odds of all these events happening and the fry surviving to a happy ending aren't good. :grenade:

While I certainly don't believe that the fish in Malawi hybridize in mass numbers, I think that it's fair to say that hybridization does occur, and that for the most part those hybrid genes simply don't survive long term in the vast majority of populations.

I think that we can all agree on that. (or not?) lol

RD - I could agree with this. Obviously hybrids happen (Ad and Larry have seen them) but they were single individuals - not groups.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

You know spider you discount every possibility I've mentioned, your back to the it doesn't happen c--p and longshots unlikely c--p. You questioned the females raped scenario which no one saw that way but you and then I clarified it and you went right past it without mention. New fish entering into a colony do not disappear theyre genes are mixed in there is no erasing DNA. You'd like to believe it but it's completely false. Mind you by your own words hybridization occur's but only with one fish and then it disappears. DNA is going to prove you to be very shortsighted . Fish intermingle from different populations these are documented fact's , you act as if it's not already proven . Enjoy the flat earth you live on. And try to find more tiny snippets that you can question , without ever coming out and saying the one thing that you know would make everyone laugh ( My name is Spyder and all the fish in the lakes existed when the lake was formed and haven't changed since then) Because obviously that's what you believe , just come out and say it. You've fought every thoery for change over the millenia. I won't waste another minute on this thread.

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

Bye Ambush! Thanks for stopping by! :neener:
Now maybe this thread can get better! I like the hands on theory from Larry. You don't know until you have been there. Everything I had read on the internet or in books was close on fish in Peru but once I saw it for myself in person, it gives you a different perspective. Someday I hope my next trip will be to Africa, so then I can be questioned by Vinny! :jump:

[CJC]

I'd have to say in one way or another, you all have some correct views. Yes fish travel on rafts, yes mouth brooders may release fry in open waters and the fry may venture off to new lands and survive, yes there are hybrids which occur in nature, although rare, and yes AP DNA can disappear, etc. The % of fry which make it to adulthood is very small and when 2 fish create a hybrid, the chances of that 1 fish that made it and mated again, is very small. So now that that fish never mated, it's DNA has disappeared.

Either way, I don't see what the big deal is, as long as we're not producing hybrids at home and selling them. Giving them away is just as bad too. All should be feeders. IMO

[why_spyder]

You questioned the females raped scenario which no one saw that way but you and then I clarified it and you went right past it without mention.

Are you referring to the post above? If so, I'm quite sorry to say I was on my lunch break at work - 30 minutes to eat and read what had been stated since my last post, plus time to respond. I cut my response short just to make the time limit. If you can't appreciate that then I really don't care.

New fish entering into a colony do not disappear theyre genes are mixed in there is no erasing DNA. You'd like to believe it but it's completely false. Mind you by your own words hybridization occur's but only with one fish and then it disappears.

I don't recall posting that the fish enter and then magically disappear. Please quote me so that I may see what you are talking about.

DNA is going to prove you to be very shortsighted.

Not sure what you mean by this to be honest.

Fish intermingle from different populations these are documented fact's , you act as if it's not already proven . Enjoy the flat earth you live on. And try to find more tiny snippets that you can question , without ever coming out and saying the one thing that you know would make everyone laugh ( My name is Spyder and all the fish in the lakes existed when the lake was formed and haven't changed since then) Because obviously that's what you believe , just come out and say it. You've fought every thoery for change over the millenia. I won't waste another minute on this thread.

I feel that never quite understood my theory on how new species may arise. However I do have a problem believing that new species start from fry falling from the sky, literally.

The raped female issue is a bit of a stretch. A female could submit to a different male's advances - spawn, and produce fry. It obviously has happened one or twice or there would not have been hybrids seen in the lake.

However, somehow you feel that I believe nothing has changed since the beginning of time - which is absolutely a crock of ****. There is no way I could be a Cynotilapia fan - see all the variants - and say that nothing has changed. But, my theory does hold some viability simply by looking at the various blaze colorations found up and down the range of C. sp. mbamba.

And in all seriousness - do you really think I'm afraid of people laughing at my theories - not really. When humility is dished out by those that have a negative reputation that proceeds them - it really doesn't bother me. Besides, a little humility is good for you.

Thanks for the "pleasant" PM as well.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

I really didn't think I had a bad rep. but hey anything's possible.

[vinman]

I really didn't think I had a bad rep. but hey anything's possible.


You are all right with me.
Bro, remember he has 3.5 years into the hobby. You are trying to convince A person that puts Cyno. afra Lupingu, Cyno. sp. hara Gallireya Reef, Cyno. sp. lion Lion's Cove, Cyno. sp. mbamba Mphanga Rocks all in the same round contaner. Dude no window, you have to look at them from the top of the water. Like you can realy tell what is going on.

AMBUSHPREDATOR You have a great understanding of nature. You know your stuff, DNA dont lie, It proved our point in the beginning of the thread and on Nicks thread. If you notice I have not posted for a bit on this thread. I have a saying for this type of circumstance . You can't teach a dog how to talk. Whay are you wasting you time. I sure you better thing to do, I dont give him much credit as a african cichlid keeper. Spend your time helping thoes that have a open mind. I'm sure not wasting mine on this thread. I do Conversation work and know very much how nature works. You can vist the lake all you want. You can't tell me that if you go to the lake every year you are always going to see the same fish at the same territory. What about any females that might of surived. Just because no one found any dont mean that ane not there breeding. What about the sibs that may have surived. The aera is huge unless you spend everyday on a reef, rock outcrop, or island for a couple of years with multibile cammeras on 24/7 you are only looking a small timeframe. The fact remaines the pics were posted of natural hybrids in the lake. DNA has proved that fish have travled great distances to find a safe haven after leaving its natural home range. Dont feel you have to convince the world . Time will show how right we are as more DNA testing is done end of story!!!

[why_spyder]

You are all right with me.
Bro, remember he has 3.5 years into the hobby. You are trying to convince A person that puts Cyno. afra Lupingu, Cyno. sp. hara Gallireya Reef, Cyno. sp. lion Lion's Cove, Cyno. sp. mbamba Mphanga Rocks all in the same round contaner. Dude no window, you have to look at them from the top of the water. Like you can realy tell what is going on.

Thank you, I haven't had this good of a laugh in a while.

And those 29 years of experience were so good to you, such great looking Lab. caeruleus by the way....

http://s467.photobucket.com/albums/rr34/VR_63/African%20Cichlids/?action=view&current=2008_10190001.flv

....and it's good to see the ethics you learned

I just bought about 75 Afra that are pure and mixed. The guy had Jalo reef with Gallireya Reef and a Mabama. Some are pure and some are a mix, You can't be sure what is what. They will go to the pet stores as mixed Mbuna with other cheap Mbuna and sold under Mixed Mbuna .

As we all know - this is going nowhere fast. Ah well, it was fun(ny) while it lasted.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

From now on I'll only post my opinion on hot issues, and that's it. I should have left this post the minute it got personal. There is no winning a debate on theory right or wrong. It just drag's down the site . And making 50 helpful post's are wiped out with one negative one. It's really not worth it. I said I would not post again in this thread but I think it's important for closure on this debacle.

[vinman]

Glad you enjoyed the video, Yellow lads are all wild except the one albino female. Nice mix of fish it is a stable tank. I have Sailfins mollies in almost all my African cichlid tanks. I have very little problems . Now my customers are getting mollies to put in their tanks with their African Cichlids. I have heard nothing but good replays.

Now, I sell to stores As you know millions of hybrid African Cichlids come out of Asia and Florida every year. That is right I'm honest and sell a quality product. I list the fish for what they are. If the are pure they are labeled pure. If I don't know their ancestry they are labeled AS, if they are mutts then they are sold as Mutts, Sometimes when I sell to stores they want cheap crap. Hybrids, Odds and ends pure breeds and AS get all sold as mixed cichlids. They stores know this They get told this everytime I know hybrids are in the mix. So far as ethics go My reputation in impeccable.

[fischfan13]

Vinman, are you saying that you sell hybrids?

[vinman]

Yes I do I have no problem Selling hybrids. Most fish that are AS are hybrids, Almost all the fish you see in petstores are just that. I breed firefish, Albino red OB and cherry red zebra are hybrids, albino yellow labs are hybrids. On another note most red zebras in the hobby today are hybrids. Like I said if it pure it has tracibile roots to wild. If not it is a AS. if it is a right out cross I tell it like it is. You know that I dont hold back, like you Bill I speak my mind . I love my RT trewavasae But the truth is they are AS with no tracibile roots to wild. I love them and is one of my favorite fish in the house

[why_spyder]

AS

On another note most red zebras in the hobby today are hybrids.

AS = Aquarium Strain?

I don't agree with the comment about Met. estherae, but if you substituted "Electric Yellow Labs" I would. :lol:

[RD]

Almost all the fish you see in petstores are just that.

Really? It must suck living in your area. The vast majority of the cichlids in my area are pure (at least as pure as any fish swimming in the lake), including many of the cichlids sold in the big box stores. The fact that a fish comes out of a pond in Florida doesn't make it any less pure than what's coming out of your tanks, beyond the obvious hybrid strains such as most of the albinos.

[vinman]

Yes that is what AS means .

Straight out . I'm not being mean with this statement . I'm just being truthful. With 3.5 years in they hobby, how can you relay make that comment. Yes you are right with AS YELLOW LABS. I tell you want, give me the history of all the red zebras strains in the hobby to day. I want to know about founder stocks. You can prove me I wrong with you EXP in the hobby with the right answer . I intern will give you the correct answer. Is stead of telling me I'm wrong . How about you ask me Why I made the statement. How did I come to that conclusion. If you don't know the answer Then be a man and be truthful.. Now you compose yor wrighting very beautifully. You compose your English like I know my fish. So let me give you a head start In the mid 70's Two shipments came into America from mozambque contaning red zebras. War torn mozambque maid it impossibile for futher shippements till around 1992-93What happened in thoese 20 years to red zebras ????

[fischfan13]

With 3.5 years in they hobby, how can you relay make that comment.

I wish that you would stop trying to belittle Brian with this comment. All of us started somewhere, and to constantly try to stick Brian with this comment is wrong. I would bet you that there are at least another dozen daily posters here with that much experience or less.
Personally I do not agree with what you are doing. Anything that to you is called a "mixed Mbuna" should be euthanised or used as feeders, not brought to a lfs for profit.

Just my 2 cents...

[vinman]

RD Nop Mos fish here in the us are getting their fish out of Asia. FL has been hybridnizeing fish from the start. Farms all try to hybridnize anyt thing they can To improve look and color

[vinman]

I wish that you would stop trying to belittle Brian with this comment. All of us started somewhere, and to constantly try to stick Brian with this comment is wrong. I would bet you that there are at least another dozen daily posters here with that much experience or less.
Personally I do not agree with what you are doing. Anything that to you is called a "mixed Mbuna" should be euthanised or used as feeders, not brought to a lfs for profit.

Just my 2 cents...


You have you know the history before ypu can to tell someone they are wrong. this fish has been in the hobby 30 + years and you going to tell me someone 3.5 years is going to try to correct someone That had been doing it for 29 they are wrong . That is not right either. You have to respect someone Knowlage of the hobby there is a right way to find out information before you put a stick in the mud and tell someone that they dont know what they are talking about

[fischfan13]

There have been plenty of people with less time than me in this hobby who have taught me a thing or two...plenty.

[vinman]

The reason for these forums is to learn Bill not to tell oldtimers They dont know what they are talking about.

Nothing wrong with selling Hybrids may 20 years ago but the Crimson red and the OB peacock broke that taboo. Most Malawi fish are mutts in the hobby today. I will explain when WS gives me his answer . I'm wating . Keep looking on the net for answers because you aint going to find it .

[vinman]

There have been plenty of people with less time than me in this hobby who have taught me a thing or two...plenty.

Bill you are total 100% right I have had the same thing happen to me in the herp world too . But history is best known buy the elders. Now I have worked with these fish since 1979 mostly with wild fish I been going to the wholesaler since 1980 What most seen in books I have seen at the importers all the way back to AFI ( African Fish Imports ) I deserve my respect

[RD]

Well said Bill .........


Vinman - The fact that certain fish have been crossed to create 'new' man made strains over the yrs, does not equate to all the fish seen in petstores being hybrids. I'm in the wholesale biz, I deal with retail outlets, I know where they get their fish, and I deal directly with someone that has been breeding african cichlids for the past 40 yrs (in Florida) I'm also pushing 50 yrs of age, and have been keeping fish more than just a few odd years now.
Just thought that I would get that out of the way seeing as you appear to be impressed with numbers. I also wouldn't be caught dead with a mollie swimming in my african tanks. :lips:

You're making some rather bold statements, and painting with a rather broad brush, don't you think?

[fischfan13]

We will agree to disagree, Vin.
If someone with 3 1/2 years in the hobby wants to point something out to me and tell me that I am wrong then I am fine with it.
Oldtimer?
Not me.

[vinman]

I said most all not all i do sell Purbred to stores . I'm knowe I'm not the only one. But most stores here in the states get farm bred fish it is a different world here . It is all about the money . Wht sell is flash

[fischfan13]

Just because you are "not the only one" does not make it right.

[vinman]

I know what I'm talking about Now Bill Why aint WHYSPIDER comming back with his quick comment . Answer, because he is looking up information on the net . Now he made a fast statment to my post but why so long now that I ask hin to back his words telling me I'm wrong . He is online. Maybe asking Larry for info to make him look more than he does ? It has been a 1/2 of a hour. Fair to say he dont know the answer even though he was so fast to tell me I'm wrong.

[fischfan13]

I know what I'm talking about Now Bill Why aint WHYSPIDER comming back with his quick comment . Answer, because he is looking up information on the net . Now he made a fast statment to my post but why so long now that I ask hin to back his words telling me I'm wrong . He is online. Maybe asking Larry for info to make him look more than he does ? It has been a 1/2 of a hour. Fair to say he dont know the answer even though he was so fast to tell me I'm wrong.

1) Why do you have this penchant to go after Brian?

2) What is wrong with looking up information...isn't that how all of us learn?

3) Are you trying to tell everyone here that you know more than all of us?

4) I am finished with this thread.

[vinman]

Well said Bill .........


Vinman - The fact that certain fish have been crossed to create 'new' man made strains over the yrs, does not equate to all the fish seen in petstores being hybrids. I'm in the wholesale biz, I deal with retail outlets, I know where they get their fish, and I deal directly with someone that has been breeding african cichlids for the past 40 yrs (in Florida) I'm also pushing 50 yrs of age, and have been keeping fish more than just a few odd years now.
Just thought that I would get that out of the way seeing as you appear to be impressed with numbers. I also wouldn't be caught dead with a mollie swimming in my african tanks. :lips:

You're making some rather bold statements, and painting with a rather broad brush, don't you think?


Rd that red top Marmalade cat you got listed a L fuelleborni Yes

[RD]

So let me get this straight, most of the retail stores in the USA get their fish from Asia, and the fish that are raised by the millions in Florida ponds are being sold where exactly?

While I understand that there are currently millions of fish being imported from Asia (many hybrids, many hormoned), especially compared to 10-15 yrs ago (I see them up here as well) that still doesn't come close to adding any type of validity to anything that you have posted in this discussion. Quite frankly your comments come across to me as nothing more than the ramblings of an oldtimer. A legend in his own mind, comes to mind.

I think I'll go watch my fish, and leave the eggspurt to discuss the rest of this tall tale with himself.

[vinman]

1) Why do you have this penchant to go after Brian?

2) What is wrong with looking up information...isn't that how all of us learn?

3) Are you trying to tell everyone here that you know more than all of us?

4) I am finished with this thread.

You know why. . If he made the comment than back it up on the spot . If you dont know complet history than keep your oppion to yoursely till you find out the answer Or man up on the spot . How can someone comment on a subject like that and not know any of the history. Sorry that is total out of line. If he disargreed with me the he should have found out the truth or asked why I is that so . Or can you explain why you are making that statment.

[vinman]

Rd just to let you know there no RT fuelleborni with red tops in the lake. Orange yes but know RT/OB with deep orange dorsals. The fish you got posted if a scearmer. but is mostly trewavase. This is what I mean by knowleage. I also sell to stores small time. But have you gone to the importers and see shipments of wild stock I would say more than 200 wild shipments or . Have you just been getting Farmed raised stuff fro FL farms

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

Since new question's have surfaced I'm going to try my new opinion only reply with no finger pointing.
Most fish stores and big box pet store's in our area have a small assorted tank which is mixed (mostly mbuna) A few of them are recognizable but I wouldn't trust one that looked pure anyway.
Obviosly the tang's are more on the up and up and appear far more recognizable, probably because they interbreed less or are just treated as more important to keep purer. Julies are exempt, and mixed often .
Farm's , the vast majority but not ALL are in the business of pumping out fish. They keep the best looking males and breed back , and breed back , and breed back to their own relatives over and over . You can't blame them all the customer wants is cheap. Youll rarely see them lined up for wild stock to improve the overall quality of what's going on in they're own pen's.
I believe that ninety percent of the fish in stores around here are produced in this fashion for people that like fish but have no idea what quality is, and couldn't care less.
Now the specialist fishfarm's , or the niche farm's 10%. They see that they can have quality fish and make a quality profit. They have virtually zero presence in fish stores ( CAN'T COMPETE ) they have websites and are known in a circle such as we are in here. Through club's and newsletters as well, for having higher quality fish.
That's my opinion , and only my opinion.

[RD]

WoW Vinman, I had no idea, I thought that was a WC fish. :rotate:

And yes, I've seen plenty of WC fish that have been freshly imported, and have owned my share as well. Big Deal. Personally, if/when possible I prefer tank raised strains, not WC fish. (Malawi & otherwise)
I also have nothing against man made strains, as long as they are sold as such, and are obvious, not the mixed bag of crap that you admit selling.


They keep the best looking males and breed back , and breed back , and breed back to their own relatives over and over . You can't blame them all the customer wants is cheap. Youll rarely see them lined up for wild stock to improve the overall quality of what's going on in they're own pen's.


Introducing wild stock doesn't always equate to improving the quality in any line of fish. As far as that goes, a carefully developed & maintained line bred strain can often times produce healthier fish than unrelated specimens.
New genes doesn't necessarliy = improved genes.

Now the specialist fishfarm's , or the niche farm's 10%. They see that they can have quality fish and make a quality profit. They have virtually zero presence in fish stores

Those aren't farms per se, they are generally importers with small breeding set ups (compared to most commercial pond operations) who sell directly to the retail outlets, and/or the general public. Jeff Rapps would be a good example, and even Jeff sells to fish stores, including BIG box stores.

[vinman]

Red zebra history in america follows in the mid 70 two shipments from Mozambque contained red zebras in. The males were blue and the females were red. As I was told in the early 80's buy the people that were in this since the early 70's is that one or two O males had poped out of some of the wild imports. The demand started for O male ,But they could not get any shipments out of Mozambque due to a civel war. They have found other populations of Zebras that had O morphs. Now as I was told the people collecting on the lake at that time were not the most honest people. This is before Grant became the main player on the lake. If I'm not mastaken it was after the Davies. Peter and his wife or Richard Furzer I'm almost it was the latter. We they were taking these o morph fish that were not from Minos reef ( At that time know one knew where red zebras came from ,Just mozambuque ) Any who's. The O males were rare but the comenend a high price 100 wholesale. In time we had found out that all those red males were not the same location as the first red zebras. Also white colbolts were sold as red males ,not the pearl white the non pearl whites .thie was not by importers but by so caled repituble people.sellinh to hobbiest/breeders. Remember the thinking was all zebras were the same fish just different colors because they came from different localitys in the lake. Someone had crossed a rusty cichlid cichlid ( the purple phaze ) to the red zebras. This cross inhanced the orange pigment. See in wild Esthera they are a florescent red/orange color. This color fades to a light orange color in the indoor enviorment. These hybrids did not loose their color. When these females were bred back to O males some of the O males instead of being pink wre deep red orange like the males. The new was coined Chrimson red. The quickly became all the rage and the FlL. farms were soon to become the leaders in the production of this new hybrid at this time. they also bred this strain to the albino zebra to produce the albino red zebra. ( not the one in the hobby today. I dont know how that was delveloped, It its totaly diferent) These were bred to produce the deepest red on red fish and the name Chreey red was coined this hybird was applyed to the rare Ob phaze, Called the orange blossom zebra. Not the red ob or Orange blossm has a small muttled pattred of a blueish blotch. Un like most OB females that have a brown blotch. Now you had the color of the orange blossem to the chrimson zebra. these were crossed to the pinto Zebra, also known in this country as pinto or Mozambque zebra. That was a zebra that had deep black blotches they were in block form and males came in were whits with black blotches females had acream to a white backround with big black blotches, notic I dont say spots or mottleing. This pattren was known as Big Block. So at this time pure reds were few and far between. only a few peoplw had them as time went on none were pure any more you hardly seen them. all the red ob's no longer had the same orange color blotches to them, nor did they had the mottled blueish pattren but big black blotches . Not there is a albino Red OB that I have no idea how it was delveloped all I know is it breed with reds zebras and it has bigblocks . It is a mutt.)

Example of a pure red ob
http://i44.tinypic.com/1zmzbqt.jpg

It was not untill S Grant found one of the native fishaman that caught the red zebras with the orignal collector. Knew where the locality was. Grant tried for a long time to find the population. Any how They starting importing the true fish . The first shipments contaned fist from another locality of red zebras Chiluchia. They were not as nice by far . then the minos reef population came in . Now I know old world got a hold of the first shipmenmts from minos reef. They stocked pure ones. but most farms just took wild females and bred them to their old stock O and big block males. Some hobbiest also did the same and tried to pass thes fish off as F1 fish. So there you go. no shipmwnts in over 2 years how many pure fish you think that are out ther compared to all the farmed raised mutts on the market

[vinman]

WoW Vinman, I had no idea, I thought that was a WC fish. :rotate:

And yes, I've seen plenty of WC fish that have been freshly imported, and have owned my share as well. Big Deal. Personally, if/when possible I prefer tank raised strains, not WC fish. (Malawi & otherwise)
I also have nothing against man made strains, as long as they are sold as such, and are obvious, not the mixed bag of crap that you admit selling.




Introducing wild stock doesn't always equate to improving the quality in any line of fish. As far as that goes, a carefully developed & maintained line bred strain can often times produce healthier fish than unrelated specimens.
New genes doesn't necessarliy = improved genes.



Those aren't farms per se, they are generally importers with small breeding set ups (compared to most commercial pond operations) who sell directly to the retail outlets, and/or the general public. Jeff Rapps would be a good example, and even Jeff sells to fish stores, including BIG box stores.

Dont take waht I said out of context. I did not say all I said most . most is not all is it. . The fact that small time breeders that are producing pure is a small % of the fish in the hobby as a whole . Now I speaking about Malawi fish. No one said that your fish was wild but you obviously know that that fish is way to slim to be called a fulleborni. When it is mostly a trewavase. This is what I'm talking about. Not what is the differance with MY Cyno .Afra they are a combined of 2 to 3 localitys of afra and some pure localitys . Not sure who is who. That same with a lot iof fish you get or the trewavase would have not been sold a a Fuelleborni. Not that is is a pure trewavase either . It is too lagge in the front of tyhe body then tappers off like a trewavasae toward the end. The nose is a trewavase nose and the color of the dorsal. So you beloved Rt marmlade cat is a combo of different labeotropheus. Just like my afra Only I was up front about the fish.You were not. Maybe I wrong and you could not tell the differance between a Fullweborni and a trewavase if that is the truth the you dont know about the fish as much as you think. This is the differance between me and you. Not saying you are stupid . Not buy far you do know a lot But still cant tell pure from a mutt .

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

In my opinion most all fish sold in fishstores today are produced without quality being priority #1 thus leaving profit #1 By looking at the much higher quality I can often get from local breeders proves this point to me.
Having said that you can find large breeder's who take much more pride in the quality of their fish, if you know one your lucky, take advantage of it.
I personally know someone who sell's a n.j. big box store. Not the whole chain, a store. To sell an entire chain like PETCO. with thousands of store's would be a tremendous feat. If Jeff Rapp is selling to the entire chain he must have a monsterous setup going and, kudos for him I'm jealous.(for-real)
And to repeat this opinion of mine only. When I spend any time in any of the numerous (5) Ha Ha Ha petstores I do business with. The only thing that 90% of the customers (fish buyer's)ask is what's the name of that pretty one or, can I put that one with my other one's. There is no question most people don't even know what the fish is really supposed to look like. And they don't care, god bless them they are the happiest fishkeepers. Obviously store owners are going to buy the cheapest fish possible. Why pay more if the person doesn't know the difference. Better quality fish cost more money. They eat better food , they are scrutinized more ( labor=$)and they are shipped in better condition (higher freight charges for less tightly packed fish). Once again only my opinion and I hope everyone has their own , god bless america. Remember I can only say this because I've been to the stores here. Stores in other parts of the country might have a different gameplan so I'm not going to speculate on what goes on anywhere else. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Just and add on. Even the stores I do sell to only devote about ten percent of the store tanks to me. That still leaves 90% to large wholesaler's. Now that's a fact I will debate if necessary.

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

So Vinman if someone like me with breeding cichlids for 42 years would you listen to me if I told you it is wrong for you to be selling hybrids to local fish stores or to anyone?
I don't think you are right either for getting on him for having been in the hobby for 3.5 years. We are all here to learn and if I can learn something from someone with less experience then me then so be it.
Remember opinons are like AHOLES, we all have one whether right or wrong.

[RD]

Way too slim to be called a fuelleborni? Say what?
The photo that you are referring to was taken when that fish was
just a young juvie, perhaps 3" long.

You seem to be making a LOT of assumptions in this thread, about fish, and people. As far as your little story about the red zebra, all I can say is whoa ...... I'm not even sure I want to touch this one, or where to begin.
I noticed that your entire tall tale is based on what you heard, or what you were told. Funny stuff if nothing else.

Someone had crossed a rusty cichlid cichlid ( the purple phaze ) to the red zebras. This cross inhanced the orange pigment. See in wild Esthera they are a florescent red/orange color. This color fades to a light orange color in the indoor enviorment.

Seriously, put the bong down. You have gone from sounding like a pretentious blow hard, to a babbling idiot. IF, I repeat IF, someone was going to attempt to fix the color in red zebras, they sure as hell wouldn't use a rusty cichlid. Also, the color in red zebras fades while they are still in the concrete vats at Stuarts. (as per my conversation with a friend of mine who spent 7 months working for Stuart) In his opinion this was due to their change in diet. (Stuart was feeding a bulk flake food)

Either way I've spent far too much time reading, and responding to your ridiculous comments.

Over & out ........

[vinman]

So Vinman if someone like me with breeding cichlids for 42 years would you listen to me if I told you it is wrong for you to be selling hybrids to local fish stores or to anyone?
I don't think you are right either for getting on him for having been in the hobby for 3.5 years. We are all here to learn and if I can learn something from someone with less experience then me then so be it.
Remember opinons are like AHOLES, we all have one whether right or wrong.


that is right Ed I would not agruee with you if you were telling Some facts about Old world cichlids, Mbuna, No Way , that is my expertize. I know You can teach me a thing or two about Tangs. I respect you . If I was to question you about something I did not kow for sure but had a different oppion I would question you . Not come out and say you are wrong. No if you were talking anout selling hybrids. Thats a oppion but the fact remains when I comes down to Malawi cichlids most in the stores and of all Malawi out of Asia Exp Singapore abnd Twain are hybrids

[vinman]

Way too slim to be called a fuelleborni? Say what?
The photo that you are referring to was taken when that fish was
just a young juvie, perhaps 3" long.

You seem to be making a LOT of assumptions in this thread, about fish, and people. As far as your little story about the red zebra, all I can say is whoa ...... I'm not even sure I want to touch this one, or where to begin.
I noticed that your entire tall tale is based on what you heard, or what you were told. Funny stuff if nothing else.



Seriously, put the bong down. You have gone from sounding like a pretentious blow hard, to a babbling idiot. IF, I repeat IF, someone was going to attempt to fix the color in red zebras, they sure as hell wouldn't use a rusty cichlid. Also, the color in red zebras fades while they are still in the concrete vats at Stuarts. (as per my conversation with a friend of mine who spent 7 months working for Stuart) In his opinion this was due to their change in diet. (Stuart was feeding a bulk flake food)

Either way I've spent far too much time reading, and responding to your ridiculous comments.

Over & out ........

It is realy sad that you dont know this after all these years in the hobby. Everyone know that a Crimson red is a rusty crossed to a red zebra. I mean thoes of us who knew our fish knew

I'm not talking about S. Grants I talking once we had then here in The USA It takes about 6 months for them to lose their color. What are you talking You would know this if you had real wild red Zebras. I bought many from Atlantis and a wild trio from Old world all wild . I fed color flake anD 98% pure spurlina flake from JhemCo. They get freash alge from the rocks in the tank with 14 hours of light a day. They will get the same color if you keep them out doors, that is how much you know. I have bred many wild localitys of fulleborni and none of my fish had that slim of a body at 3 inches. again you are wrong. You should aslo know their is no such thing as a true RT fuelleborni in OB. Orange top yes at chungunda rocks and a very light orange top at Mebenji IS. Never is there any OB fuelleborni with that bright or a red top and finage ask Larry J he dives in the lake . They may call them red top but in fact the are orange not red like yours. You are your own worst enemy. Now you are not making your self look good. It is your own words killing you not me.

[RD]

Ok, one more time, real slow ........

I never said that fish was a 'pure' anything, anymore than the OB peacock in my tank is, or the albino taiwan reef. But if it makes you feel any better, ok, I'm wrong. :lips:

[vinman]

Look man I not comming on here to down you or anyone . I give you big kudeos That's a real man in my book Right or wrong.weither I like someone or not. Kudeos.

Look there are all different people in the hobby. I was one person that got lied to most of my life buy my mother. So over the yeatrs I have this complex to find the truth. So many times I have been disapointed When I found out the truth. Guess what used to be my most Favorit Fish . The Red top Marmalade cat Fuelleborni . Thats right. It took me ovwer 15 years to find out My beloved morph was a RT Ob trewavasae from Thumbi west IS. Crossed to a fuelleborni. I was crushed. I always are in search of where the fish come from and nevered trusted anyone. I found that most of the people just looked at the fish and took it for what ever someone told the it was. I would correct them agaig They would do the homework and they would come up to me and say thank you and tell my mom he is one smart kid. I started African cichlids in sept 79 when 16 years old . Doors open for you as a kid. When you start to talk to the people importing the fish tyhey will give a kid way more time than a adult. That is human nature. Well when the kid talks back to the importer and ask real good questions and gives good answers well they get fascinated. I just dont keep cichlids I love my mbuna I waite for years to get certin Localitys. I oew a whole To Ben Rosen . He used to be in partners or worked at AFI, then he went on his own and bought out Greenspan and turned it into African Aquitcs. He put up a artical in the BB and it had his address. Ilm not sure if I had to look up the tel# or not . I called him and pleaded with him to sell me fish and I could not find anydealers selling his fish and I wanted pure ones. I guess that hit a spot in his heart. He offered me a once i a life time Trip to the wholesaler.He said Kid break the piggy bank gather all the money you can I let you buy from me one time because I see you realy know your fish. well me and mom hit the bank took the buss to queens and spent around 300 bucks. I was there for at least 2 hours he was talking to me and my mom . kept telling how impressed he was witrh my knlowleage of the fish and the passion. I was so fussy picking my fish . Well It was time to bring home the goodies. I paied him and took my last galnce at heaven. Then after all the goodbyes were said, I heard the Magic words come out of his mouth. Vinny you can come back any time you want but dont tell anyone where you get your fish. Well you know every shipment I was there. He also spent many hours on the phone with me

I spell like crap and my Composition sucks. But I'm very well adversed in the animals I keep .
Pelase dont think I think I know everything. I know a lot but noway do i have all the answers , or thatI'm right all the time. I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

Honestly we really don't know what the heck is going on with most of these fish. We know what we see and we know what we've read. Even with all the guesswork we put into these fish it's easier to just like them. The only true ones we can really sleep on with any conviction would be the ones we caught ourselves. Any other's are open to speculation and ridicule. It's a no win situation trying to truly get to the bottom of it all. They'll be angry people with no closure guaranteed. We should just agree to disagree. In the thirty years I've been with these fish I've learned that the more I learn the less know. And there's never been a happier time than when I looked in that first tank and saw my first leloupi and calvus. I didn't question them , I was just in awe.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

Wow I killed another thread . Ouch !!!

[vinman]

everything has a end . Thats what My dead beat dad told me before he left for eroupe about a cirten business adventure I had for many years. He was right I give him that credit . He was right everything has a end !!!

[fischfan13]

Nice.
Now consider this post dead.
If anyone wants to question me about this move please pm me.