Still stuck on these albinos

[nick a]

I've got 6 tanks devoted to these guys :dopey: These are are the first generation offspring from my 'normals' that produce 25% albinos. The females are still quite small. The 1st to hold spit 4 fry, the 2nd only 3 and a third one is holding now. From Doc's line, I get all yellow/white males and all pinkish/yellow females. From my normals (it appears so far) that some of the males will have a touch of black still in the pelvics and dorsal. I've got one that I'm pretty sure is a female that has a wonderful golden color--can't wait to get some fry from her!
Some pics of the young 'uns (about 2") from the normals:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/tnzka/DSC_0271.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/tnzka/DSC_0270.jpg

[mack74]

VERY NICE FISH!

[dandallasfan]

Great looking fish! Where did you get these?

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

When can we have some? :asthanos:

[why_spyder]

Nice Cynotilapia.... (like you didn't know that already)....

[vinman]

got any for sale????

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

Nice fish !:clapclap:

[vinman]

EMTBMIKE got some nice ones too . Only in Mike's strain the bars in the dorsal fin in are more defined. I like to get a nice male from Nick's strain.

[ChrisG12887]

wow! really like these!

[nick a]

3rd female released 6 fry last week --so the numbers are climbing--HA! Honestly, I'm just pleased that they're even breeding. Had to separate out all but one of the males. The aggression was just getting too high & I didn't want to risk any of the females. I figure they can get away from one male! I saw some action this weekend between the male and the golden one!!!!!!!

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/806/dsc1405cp4.jpg

[why_spyder]

So Nick - are there two different colored albino females? An all white and an all gold?

[vinman]

Looking at the dorsal fin I'm starting to wonder if these are the pure strain. I found that quite wierd that the females are 2 different colors when normal colored female cobue Afras are all the same color. I have never seen a cobue male that had a muddy fin. All the wild cobue I seen had well defined stripes in the dorsal. There are other Afra populations that have the yellow draped over the back with muttled pattren in the dorsal fin.

[fischfan13]

Nick, absolutely beautiful. How can we get some up here to NJ?:eclipsee_steering:

[nick a]

The purity is without question. Just mendelian genetics at work. The original line was from a very few fry that Doc was able to save. All have been line bred from those few fry. All the fish from that line produce all white/yellow males and pale females. The pics you see are from my line. I'll spare you the family tree but the parents are recessives and produce 25% albino fry. These pics are of that 25% growing out (and starting to produce 100% albino fry themselves). Each male has his own unique look (some still show touches of black in the paired fins, the body and up into the dorsal) and the females vary from the light pinkish (like doc's) to the yellow you see.

I'm working my a$$ off to produce enough for everyone who is interested in keeping them--just takes a while to build up solid (safe) colonies :) I've got 2 batches of Doc's line soon to be able to sort out into a good colony. I'll part with the 'spares' then. I only had 1M/2F juvies to start so you can see why it's taking me so frikken long:). I've got this group of 25%'s starting to produce and have been able to get enough 25% fry to, hopefully, establish 2 other colonies; one in Houston and one soon to move to North Carolina.

All the wild cobue I seen had well defined stripes in the dorsal.
While the best looking IMHO do have the clear bar continuance into the dorsal, there is a variety of patterns that occur naturally--up to and including them joining into a solid black stripe thru the dorsal. Chatted with Ad about this and seen for myself one pair produce fry with multiple patterns. No worrys, just have to select the specimens that you prefer.

[vinman]

So are these not realted to the other line. It would be a little weird beind you guys are both from Texas. Now how many generations are they from wild stock

[nick a]

Just reread that--didn't mean to sound like a pompous pr!ck! I've had a serious passion for cynos for a long time and sometimes forget that I don't know everyone personally and I could just be another snake-oil salesman trying to peddle crap on the internet.
Here's pics of the Doc's male & female:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/tnzka/DLalbyM2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/tnzka/DSC_00131069.jpg

Here's a pic (sorry to y'all that have seen this before--but my fav pic!) of the daddy of my 25%s
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/tnzka/DSC_17251058.jpg

[vinman]

We are just discussing fish, I dont feel no negativity. I had this fish many years ago . I got them when Peter from Atlantis was selling fish out of his basment. They just started importing them and was the new fish on the block. I'm pretty familiar with the normal colored fish. I see the wild ones all the time

[nick a]

Here's some old pics --sorry they're crappy--from the days of the ol' kodak p~n~s.

the Grandfather of the 25%s
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/tnzka/desktank3dec.jpg
Some of the grow-outs from the Grandfather--one of 'em was my 'keeper'. But you can see the varying dorsal patterns even within that bunch
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/tnzka/DSC_00550548.jpg

[vinman]

I do want to mention now that I think of it I had a wild female or two that had a slight blue to the fish. they were not as dark as the rest of the females. that might where you are getting different colored females. I cant remember if my males had lots of yellow in the dorsal. I'm almost sure that they did not and were like the pic that you provided of the normal male.

VERY FUNNY CRAPPY PIC';S, They are very good pic's, I think you are going to give YAP some competition in the photo department.

[why_spyder]

I don't know Nick personally - but I have seen his work and heard of his reputation from very respectable hobbyists. He doesn't peddle junk :P

[vinman]

when you rae in the hobby for almost 30 years you be suprised who get fooled. Just take a look at the ACA and see how many convention winners are hybrids. I have see too many over the years. If i'm not mistaking they set the standers for the hobby. That is another thread

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

So when can I get some here in PA?

[vinman]

Yap he is not shipping. I asked already:hyper:

[fischfan13]

Yap he is not shipping. I asked already:hyper:

Who said shipping?:eclipsee_steering:
If memory serves me right there was a thread many moons ago about taking a drive to Texas.

[vinman]

Yea, GOOD LUCK. I have friends that used to hunt snakes in Texas from the tri-state aera and your state. Long ride dude . You have truble comming to the bronx to get the 2 free hongi I wanted to give you.:dance::dance::dance:.

[nick a]

So are these not realted to the other line. It would be a little weird beind you guys are both from Texas. Now how many generations are they from wild stock


Actually they ARE related--
I'll spare you the family tree
Brian--Thanks!--&--whassup with the site? I'd link vinman to the chart.......

I had this fish many years ago
You had albinos.....or normals?

YAP--do you ever talk to Muellersfish? Unfortunately, the last i heard he was selling his entire breeding program. :(

[fischfan13]

Actually they ARE related--

Brian--Thanks!--&--whassup with the site? I'd link vinman to the chart.......


You had albinos.....or normals?

YAP--do you ever talk to Muellersfish? Unfortunately, the last i heard he was selling his entire breeding program. :(

Nick, one of our members tried to pm him thru NYSicklads, but the pm was deleted by one of their upper echelon members.:disturbed: (They have the ability to go into their control panel and read and delete private messages).
If you could reach out to him and tell him to come on over here we would be grateful.

[vinman]

Actually they ARE related--

Brian--Thanks!--&--whassup with the site? I'd link vinman to the chart.......


You had albinos.....or normals?

YAP--do you ever talk to Muellersfish? Unfortunately, the last i heard he was selling his entire breeding program. :(

Like I said before I got wild caught animals when the were new to the hobby. They were the new fish at that time.

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

I found Muellersfish on the ACA forum. I will PM him there.

[nick a]

That's cool! I hope I heard wrong about him giving his up.

Vinman, I don't go back that far with these guys. I've only had these since the WC grandfather's generation about 6 years ago. This is a classic example of what I was talking about tho as shown in these old pics of the F1s. All from the same father.....you can see the variety in the dorsal configurations just within the offspring of this one male.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/tnzka/othermalecobwe0594.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/tnzka/favmalecobue10592.jpg

[vinman]

Wow, Mine did not have that varribile pattren in the dorsal. Fish can varry in a population within the same locality. I have seen that many times

[Larry Johnson]

I think those Cobwe's are awesome!:jump:

OK guys,this is getting a bit off track,so let me help you all out.
I'll try to make it short.
Maybe all the strain's are not as pure as we like to believe. You would think on the fringes of two population's sub dom males would be courting any female they could find , and as we know the females wouldn't stop them.
There are NO fringe area's between populations,Mbuna are tied to the rocks and will not travel out onto open sand for long distances.
females are more likely only seek out the best & brightest males of their kind to spawn with.
Yes this is true.Females are attracted to the brilliant males,not the dull imature ones.Females swim by colored sub-dominant males to spawn with the more brightly colored males. (Personal observation)
Sub-dominant males are chased away from their spawning sites,just like in your aquarium.
Hybrids due get produced in the wild - no doubt it happens.
This is correct.(more below)
It's been seen as you go down a coastline say from red to orange to blue , The fact that we can barely at times distinguish what the heck some fish are ourselves is proof. Look at the books.
If you are referring to Ad Konings pics of species color varieties,mapped out by different colors along the coastline to show which is found where,,,then look again.In most cases the area's are seperated with a river or some type of natural barrier (which you cannot see in a book).Although these area's of color look to YOU as they should be touching or overlapping they actually are seperated by more distance than one can concieve by reading a book.
Look at the books. They show only the fish that they can distinguish. There are no books covering all the muted brown fish in the lakes if there where or anyone actually wanted them it would be as big as the encyclopedia brittannica.
Lake Malawi is virtually covered by Ad Konings 3rd and 4th edition,,,,those brown fish you mention are sub adults of fish already described.
The fish count is approximately 850 species and there could be some that are still being missed but IMO I would think that it would not go over 900.
The fish that would be included in this '50 category' would be fish we have already observed and photgraphed but not scientifically described.eg.some fish that have been previously thought the same,would be divided into new species or sub species. (Copadichromis attripinnis,Cynotilapia sp "dwarf ntekete")
Wrong, there are more hybrids in the lake than you think.
Wrong.
Personal observation with hundreds of underwater hours in Lake Malawi,produced one hybred fish at one location.(Zimbawe Rocks)
I got the only picture of it ,Ad observed this fish as well,but could not get a picture of it.
So as the discussion went that day,,,,Ad has observed only a few others in his life time of diving there.(pers comm)
This fish was a cross between a vermivoris and an elongatus (we believe,Ad and I) and the fish was not residing anywhere near either populations of either species,,,an outcast!
Upon following up on this fish over several trips to the same area each year after,,,,its not there anymore,,,nor was any other crossbred fish found.
Some males are red, yellow, or white . Smith 2003. Useing DNA analysis they found out that population consists of natural hybirds betwween a BB Zebra found north of Makanjila and the red top morph of M Pysonotos from Chimwalani Reef.
The two fish you mention are two distinct species that cannot migrate to each other to interbreed.
Could they have been from the SAME species flock,YES and then evolution took over,not cross breeding.
Along the Coast line in which you mention,yes there are Red males,these males are Metriclima esterae.
There are also "Marmalade" males as well.(evolution of BB Zebra)

Let me clarify something that may be clouding your judgement/statements (or while I think of it)
You assume that cross breeding in this lake is creating new species,which it is not.
Here's the short version.:oh:
The allowpatric speciation theory (an accepted theory); "takes place after a small number of individuals have been seperated from the "mother" population and a new one is founded".....this is due to the fluctuating water levels over long periods of time.
Small groups of fish were sperated off the "mother" group when they inhabited the same coast line and the water levels increased.These small populations were seperated by tracks of unsuitable habitat which formed a barrier to the dispersal of certain species.
Its important to realize that while evolution can occur without speciation,speciation cannot occur without evolution.
Now if you do not believe this then why are there different colored Zebra species along the same coast.These fish are not travelling 30 miles to crossbreed!
Makanjila Point is a tremendous barrier between Chimwalani Reef (M.Prysonotus resides) and area's north of the same point!
This area is completely sand for many miles!
Your DNA explanation as described in "BB"does not conclude that the fish are hybreds,it shows to me that they came from the same "mother" group and have evolved into seperate species.

We all have good intention's and pride in our fish so let's let it be . Let's stay out of the gutter.
The absolute best quote of the day!

Cheers,Larry

[vinman]

Larry according to I the BB it clearly tell you that they are Hybrids read the artical your self it is in the BB oct/2008 number 248.

Smith using DNA analysis that this population consists of natural hybirds between BB Zebra found north of Makanjila and the red top morph of M Pysonotos from Chimwalani Reef.

I have see many pic's of hybirds in the lake . Colbolt bred wit a OB zebra at nkhata bay and it was a Ob female from the BB not a OB colbolt female. Thunbi west Is. C afra X BB zebra, The L fuelleborni In the same BB issue That talks about the hybrid ret top zebras

If you don't think fish travle how do you explain how some SSp are found all over the lake , not only from the sure line but in the reef and islands miles away from the shore

[vinman]

Larry,
I want to know how can there be such diversity of fish found on one area, can be everywhere. You would think that they evolved in that one spot ,just to find them hundreds miles away. It is impossible that they all evolve through out the whole lake at one time. Now look At the point you made about the isolated populations on reefs, Islands. If there was no drifters or strays to populate these isolated areas. There would not be fish living there that occur in other areas of the lake. There would be fish that lived there that did not occur nowhere else in the lake . This does occur in a few locality ssp. How do you explain how L fuelleborni is so widely distributed through the lake isolated or not. There are many other species that are just as common all over the lake. If what you say is true then the fish would be on there own evolutionary path. All these fish that inhabit the lake came from a small colony of fish that diversified and mutated into many different species. To believe that they did not colonize and then moved to uninhabited areas makes no sense when you take the fact how vast the lake is . Now I was told that in lake Malawi there is a season where the visibility is poor. . To think that a small fry can't make it across a long stretch to the next reef is possible . I believe a larger fish over a 1/2 a inch would have a more difficult time without being seen by a bigger fish that could eat it buy a small fry can blend into the back round

[Muellersfish]

Things have been crazy, with new promotion, just moved again (Harrisburg, PA), and have been busy trying to stay above water. Before I moved, I had two main colonies going, one that produced 50% albino and a group that produced 25%albino. To say the least, the move went poorly. I lost 1/2 of my Kilila cyps, my standard male for the colony that produced 25% albino, and some other favorites. However, I was able to keep the rest safe. As on now, I have a colony with my original albino male and 8 standard females with albino genes. I also have a juvenile group of all albinos and a group of albino fry. It appears that this move will be the last for awhile, so I will now devote more energy and time to these fish. Before everyone asks if I have any for sale, I will say no at this time. It is not because I am keeping them to my self, but that I want to make sure those that I sell breed 100% true. I realize this is the same answer I gave to several people a year ago, but I want to make sure that anything I sell is something that I would purchase and be satisfied with myself. I will keep everyone posted on how breeding is going and will post some picts when I get a chance.

[YoungAquaticPhotos]

That's ok we can wait. Good luck with them!

[nick a]

Hi Craig, should have read this before i sent the PM :erm:. I kinda faded on this thread for a while.......While I'm sorry for the move losses, I'm glad to hear that your still working with these guys. I've got some to send to you if we can figure out how to ship them 'efficiently'.

[freddy1477]

hey guys i just got one of these guys today hes really nice looking dont worry as soon as i could get him to pose for me ill post some pics:partay:

[freddy1477]

Hey nick what type of food you your albinos? I like how the yellow is nice and deep I would like for mines to look similar to yours I mean mines is coming from your line so I'm hoping the yellow on mines gets like that I'm feeding dainichi right now what other food you recomend


Thank you
Freddy

[nick a]

Hiya Freddy! I don't do anything special for food. Some quality flake & pellets. I use Dainichi a fair bit for pellets. I mix up Color FX/Color Supreme/NLS/whatever other pellets so they get a chance for something a little different each time. That's about as intense as I get with feeding:a-okhand:

You may or may not see the intensity of colors more from the dominance position your male occupies in the tank.....

[freddy1477]

thanks nick yeah thats pretty much what i feed all my tanks nls,dainichi color fx,green and red seaweed,hbh super soft spirulina pellets and twice a month i give them a little treat of hikari spirulina brine shrimp i try to mix up they diet and since i start it doin this i notice a big change in the color of the fish thank you again nick heres a pic of the little guy....:a-okhand:


http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm48/freddy1477/100_2741.jpg