New Tropheus

[Heyguy74]

I picked up 18 3" Tropheus moorii Ilangi. These are my first Tropheus. Here are some pics.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q104/Heyguy74/Tropheus/DSCF1995.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q104/Heyguy74/Tropheus/DSCF1998.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q104/Heyguy74/Tropheus/DSCF1996.jpg

[fischfan13]

Will, congrats.
Let me tell you, you're going to hate Tropheus.
I would advise you just to let me come over and pick them up.

Nice going, Will!:neener:

[maddog10]

Nice!

I just got my WC Ilangi 2 days ago. Mine are little guys, about 2". Adding more to my group next week.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

Nice pickup Will. 3" is a nice size to get them at, less fighting than 2" and still young. And they are way less susceptical to bloating than when you grow them out from 1.5". Good Luck

[Pete]

WC, about 2".

It was only a matter of time.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

Good catch pete

[fishboy]

It was only a matter of time.

Good catch pete

lol.. i love it

[maddog10]

About the WC part?

I have questioned this and it appears someone has gone and collected in crocidile infested waters, but I intend to ask Ad in a couple of weeks if he knows of anyone going back to collect the supposedly extinct in the wild Ilangi. If you have some info on this please share, don't be shy.

[maddog10]

Were your comments about something else. Can't wait to hear about them.

[Pete]

Of course about the likelihood that they're WC. And at 2" too.

I'd believe it if I was there and saw someone pull them out of the lake - and even then I'd want to be sure they didn't just have someone swim in wearing scuba with a cage full of 'em to hand to the collector.

[maddog10]

They have shown up on all the importer lists. I found references, in Cichlid News, to them being collected again as far back as 2004. The fish were listed as 2.5 - 3" and most were that size, but as is the case with a lot of sellers, they come in on the small side and these were the last ones that he had (all the others had been picked through and sold). As to whether they are truly WC, who knows. Who knows about any fish that you didn't collect personally. They are are small and collectors have been known to catch small fish as well. I bought from a reputable seller. If he says they were sold to him as WC, I believe him. I believe the importer believes they are WC as well. They are probably from a pond, lakeside. A lot of fish sold as WC are raised this way. More and more fish from the lakes that are raised in ponds are now FINALLY being sold as pond raised, lakeside.

I do intend to ask Ad Konings about this area when he comes to the CCA in a couple of weeks. He will know better than most. I will post what he says.

All you guys have to do is ask, you don't need to poke cryptic jabs at the newcomers. Its bad publicity for the forum.

[joe_jaskot]

There are a lot of wild caught tanganyikans coming out of the ponds in Florida. Buyer Beware.

[color]

Will they look good man!! Goodluck wit them....

[Pete]

They are probably from a pond, lakeside.

Given that you're willing to concede this much, why post "WC"? The sellers are telling you they're WC, knowing it's extremely unlikely - and you're saying WC with that same knowledge.

If you post that you have WC Ilangi, knowing that you most likely don't, you should probably be prepared for the occasional raised eyebrow.

I'm sorry you thought my 'jab' was cryptic - although I don't think for a second you were confused about what I was suggesting. They look like nice fish, irrespective of their origin, and that's really supposed to be the point, isn't it?

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

I personally am not appossed to the lakeside thing. They should be called lakeside . In reality if you can't get wild then lakeside is the best you could do and should not be looked down on. The people at the beginning of the chain though use wild caught because that's what you want to hear and that is what brings in top dollar. Would you pay someone around the corner the same money for f-1 or f-2's, no way . If you think about it the word's WILD-CAUGHT are the only thing they have over local breeder's. Without it they'd have to get prices in line with everyone else. It is certainly a cool thing to think you have a fish that actually came from the lake, but it doesn't mean it's better quality than what's available locally. Buy nice fish that you enjoy and don't worry so much about moniker's, they were only created to separate you from your money at a faster pace. Plus in this new world of live and let live your probably doing the lake a service buy not sucking the life out of it anyway. SAVE the lakes, buy high quality tank raised instead !!! Sorry for stepping on your post Will.

[maddog10]

Yep, sorry for hijacking your thread Will.

I have talked with the seller, he assures me they are WC and I believe him. He says the only lakeside breeding outfit is the one at Burundi, which I think we all know about. There are quite a few sellers that have received shipments of these fish and I will bet that they got some pretty small ones as well. I am sure when the divers go into these areas, they net as many fish as they can get at one time, adults, juvies and fry included. If they can stay in the net, they make it to the surface.

At some point there has to be trust and you are going to have to take someones word. I for one tend to believe people and will do so until I have proof otherwise.

I am starting to come around to the Save the Lakes way of thinking. My only reason for starting with WC stock wherever possible was to have as diverse a gene pool as I could get.

[daniel4832]

Mike,
Your question about WC got me thinking.
What is the [B]TRUE[B] difference between a WC fish from the lake, and a lake side pond raised fish? There would be grown in the same type of conditions. The parents, water, etc, would be the same in the lake, as in the pond? Does a difference (lake vs. lakeside pond), that doesn't make a difference (same conditions), truely different?
:crutch:
Thanks,
Daniel

[joe_jaskot]

Lakeside pond raised fish are fed fish food in addition to eating natural foods found in the lake. Otherwise there is little difference. They are both sold as wild.

[Heyguy74]

Don’t worry I don’t mind the discussion at all. For the record I was told mine are f1's. The guy I bought them from raised them from about an inch.

Adding to the discussion. I find that most people are full of crap about wild fish. IMO, It’s not wild unless they are removed from the lake itself. Once man gets involved, natural selection is stopped. The offspring are no longer wild. If the fish are held in a pond, just to make sure they are ok and disease free, and then shipped that fine. Once they breed in the pond, any fry are now F1, IMO, not wild.

As for trusting people. I do not at all. I find a lot of dealers/store owners to be dishonest, when it comes to fish. Not all, but most. They are out to make money. Losing the "wild caught " fish from their inventory, would kill alot of businesses. Any owner of a business would do whatever they had to, to protect their livelihood. Lie, cheat you name it. I have seen dishonesty even in the larger dealers, who sell a lot of wild fish.

Another point to make is the area around Lake Tang, is/was rife with civil war. People still eat each other over there. How many businesses are actually operation in Congo selling wild fish. I'll bet it’s not many at all. How many operate under rebel control? Do you really thing these people are honest. They have no problem with using children to fight. They would sell their mothers for a dollar.

[DNICE]

Alot of knowledge in these posts...useless or otherwise. I really enjoy my Tropheus, and could care less where they came from. Mine were caught with a net, in a tank, at Atlantis. They look great and are healthy. they have even bred. The rest is nothing but details.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

I agree all the knowledge was useful. D post your fry when you have some and do your part to save the lakes from wild colony killing , marauding , greedy collector's. Who will inevitably deplete the lake of all the nicest species . Your tank raised fry might save a mouthful in the lake !

[fischfan13]

For those of you who do not know Michael (maddog10) he is a very accomplished Cichlid Keeper. Although he has not shared the same forum with most of us that should not make anyone doubt his judgment in the fish that he gets, or who he gets it from.
For those who are doubting if the Trophs are WC, or those who are being extremely skeptical I ask you this...
How do you know that the Trophs that Michael purchased were "Lake Raised", or "Pond Raised" or even "Vat Raised"?
This is not some person who we are talking about from another forum who buys, lies and makes a buck. Michael knows his s-h-i-t, and I would hope that everyone here gives him his due.
Michael wanted to start his own colony of Ilangi that came from Africa. As a responsible Cichlid Keeper he should be allowed to go and spend his dime without anyone telling him that he should be buying fish from someone State side so he would be "saving the lakes".

Sign me out,
Just the two cents from a fellow cichlid enthusiast.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

I pm'd Mike yesterday , he's a nice guy . I am not the posterboy for save the wild fish of the lakes. It's just more interesting having people with different idea's actually voicing their opinions. I think the scrutiny was really not pointed at Mike anyway it was at people who just buy and sell for a living and would be willing to lie for a buck. Buy wild , vat , lakeside vat, tank raised, poorly raised , but don't let it raise your bloodpressure cause that's just foolish Enjoy your fish anyway you like to thats what you keep them for

[Heyguy74]

Here are some more pics. I added some rock and all hell broke loose. The fighting an the colors came flying out. It seem there is a pecking order now. Two males have half the tank and the rest have the other half.


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q104/Heyguy74/Tropheus/DSCF2077.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q104/Heyguy74/Tropheus/DSCF2076.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q104/Heyguy74/Tropheus/DSCF2088.jpg

[Heyguy74]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q104/Heyguy74/Tropheus/DSCF2094.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q104/Heyguy74/Tropheus/DSCF2075.jpg

[maddog10]

You added the rocks and created a desirable territory. Now the fun starts.

I don't mind the discussion, it has been civil. It all comes down to what each person is comfortable with after they do their research. I have 9 more from a different seller arriving Wednesday. I was a partner in an online fish business, Old Fish New Fish, so I have seen how some of the operations run. You learn pretty quick which ones are good and which ones are bad.

I also agree that fish bred lakeside are not WC, you take natural selection out of the equation. I am just going to have to learn how to SCUBA dive. Then I can take a trip over there and see how things are done for myself.

[fischfan13]

I have always kept my Tropheus tanks with several piles of rocks, and made sure that they are not continuous throughout the tank. One huge continuous pile will bring out one very dominant male, several attached piles will bring out more male controlled territories...better for breeding if you ask me.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

Nice shot's Will. I think the dom male has was already chosen before you bought them , make a single spot for him and a secondary spot for the sub dom. And good luck I can alway's use small tropheus:hyper:

[Heyguy74]

Thanks, I have no problem making seperate piles. I piled the rock pretty quickly. I hope to sell the ivoryheads in there. I dont want to have to remove a ton of rocks. Once they're gone. I'll set the tank up properly.

Maddog10,

I'd love to Scuba with you over there. It would be a dream come true. I bought some Buccochromis and some Champsochromis from Oldfishnewfish. Too bad. I cant find a male bucco for a female I have.

[maddog10]

I took the last of the Buccochromis when we shut down the warehouse. I had 4 males and 1 (very popular) female. Sold them all to a guy in Baltimore.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/maddog10/Bucco3.jpg

[Heyguy74]

Heres my big lady. She's about 8 -9 inches.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q104/Heyguy74/125%20Front%20Tank/DSCF2122.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q104/Heyguy74/125%20Front%20Tank/DSCF1012.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q104/Heyguy74/125%20Front%20Tank/DSCF1764.jpg

[Tito]

The WC issue for Ilangi's has been absolutely beaten to DEATH over at Cichlid Forum. You have people that believe theirs are wild and you have people that don't.

What if a US distributor decided that his breeders have had enough and then puts up about 50 to 80 adult fish - as WC?

Who's to tell? Can we enter their facilities and keep track of the fish?

How do the sizes of WC fish get parted out? Meaning - how do I end up with a colony of 18 WC ilangi all at 2"? Have the adults been seperated from the juvies prior to selling them? Who gets the adults? The distributors? Ohio, Florida - who gets first pick? And pond side fish are raised and bred in concrete vats.

There are way, way, way to many variables and people for me to trust in this issue.

I will trust SA distributors long before African distributors. Hobbyist are the victims of their own hype when it comes to Africans. You think you're buying your fish from Jesus? What I mean is - if you were a distributor and you know good and well that people are going crazy and willing to spend their savings account money on """"WC"""" fish - well, what do you think human nature is going to do with that info.

Enjoy your fish.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

The w.c. thing is confusing because I have seem a couple of vid's of tropheus in the wild and they are never sub adult fish they are alway's in a large school and full size. And when you think of it until maybe two three year's ago when you got wild it alway's meant full size adult fish. I don't believe it is possible to catch small fish in great number's because they dont even school as juvies (tropheus). I'd like to know from a higher source than I on this. To boot a local supplier has say 50-100 wild Illangi, multiply that number by say 50 large supplier's throughout the US Europe Asia and everywhere else and logic say's that the small place where Illangi are found is sooo rich in the fish can be collected multiple times per year . That's 2500 -5000 adult fish. More than once a year. Even people not familiar with math would would have to think twice. I mean really step back just alittle and think. Here's another thing to boggle the mind. Ilangi at 2" barely look different than a couple of other species. so unless they bred them how are they so sure what they are at that size. And since it might take a month or two for the fish to get to you from the lake they are even smaller when caught. Now I'm not saying all WC's are fake I just think 50% or more are. Just because I love the fish doesn't mean I have to agree with the big guy's , and I never will. And I'll keep my opinion's because they are my own. Have your own and I might not agree but I'll respect them which mean's not trying to squash them. If anyone from the other side of the conversation feel's differently please present something other than the trust thing because you don't even know the people your claiming to trust, you might know the third or fourth guy touching the fish but not the chain from beginning to end.

[maddog10]

That is partly why I think there are more ponds and vats over there than they let us know about. All I have is the trust thing, I trust the people that I deal with when the fish make it to the U.S., no idea what happens before then. I just want to mention that, just because many consider the Nations over there as 3rd world, it doesn't mean that ALL the people and ALL the businesses are corrupt. There are a lot of good, honest, hard working folks in this hobby as well.

I would love to see a magazine article, or something similar, on the collection, storage and shipping procedures of the fish over there.

[AMBUSHPREDATOR]

Mike I feel really bad for the hobbiest that is looking for high quality WC fish. Even if your getting what's advertised there's alway's the feeling ( I hope they are actually wild) it really sucks. But hey what choice do you really have it's like it's the only game in town. I'm not as harsh againt the vat with real lake water because if the breeder's are wild and they didn't use the fry for breeding those are pretty pure f-1s. Now if they throw f-1, 2, 3 ,4 in the vat's to breed that suck's. Good luck with your's and hey they are nice fish either way , Enjoy them.

[maddog10]

I asked Ad Saturday......

He hasn't been there since 2005 and would not give a definitive answer.

[Heyguy74]

I asked Ad Saturday......

He hasn't been there since 2005 and would not give a definitive answer.

I wonder why? He'd probably piss alot of people off by giving out that info.